Rigpa and Alayavijnana

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Queequeg
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Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:17 pm

Are these the same thing?
If so,
Are there distinctions in the way alaya is described in Yogacara and rigpa in Dzogchen?

If this has been discussed here already, reference would be appreciated.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Malcolm
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:57 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:17 pm
Are these the same thing?
If so,
Are there distinctions in the way alaya is described in Yogacara and rigpa in Dzogchen?

If this has been discussed here already, reference would be appreciated.
No, definitely not.

The all-basis consciousness is a product of ma rig pa, ignorance, the opposite of rig pa, knowledge.

In yogacāra, after the seeds of the all-basis consciousness is exhausted, it vanishes, along with the afflicted consciousness. It itself transforms into gnosis.

This process is not accepted in Dzogchen. Gnosis, or pristine consciousness, is present as the basis, and the basis is has the nature of the three kāyas. In Dzogchen, the three kāyas are not newly produced, but are always present in the form of potential.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AJP
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by AJP » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:01 pm

I don'y think they're the same but I'm not an academic. Once contains seeds of karma as a storehouse, whereas the other is beyond that which is the same for everyone. Storehouse consciousness with seeds to sprout and create karma as it occurs would be particular.

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... sciousness

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Rigpa

Happy to be corrected by those more expert :namaste:

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:03 pm

AJP wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:01 pm
I don'y think they're the same but I'm not an academic. Once contains seeds of karma as a storehouse, whereas the other is beyond that which is the same for everyone.
Rig pa is the same for everyone? Where did you hear that?

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Queequeg
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:57 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:17 pm
Are these the same thing?
If so,
Are there distinctions in the way alaya is described in Yogacara and rigpa in Dzogchen?

If this has been discussed here already, reference would be appreciated.
No, definitely not.

The all-basis consciousness is a product of ma rig pa, ignorance, the opposite of rig pa, knowledge.

In yogacāra, after the seeds of the all-basis consciousness is exhausted, it vanishes, along with the afflicted consciousness. It itself transforms into gnosis.

This process is not accepted in Dzogchen. Gnosis, or pristine consciousness, is present as the basis, and the basis is has the nature of the three kāyas. In Dzogchen, the three kāyas are not newly produced, but are always present in the form of potential.
Ah. Ok.

In Xuanzhang's commentary on Vasubandhu's 30 verses, I recall a proposition of a purified 8th consciousness referred to by several names, but the one I recall now is amala. As I understand, in Yogacara the 8th consciousness is distinguished as alaya if defiled.

Does the purified 8th consciousness line up with rigpa? (is this purified 8th consciousness a unique interpretation by XZ?)

Are the three kayas in Dzogchen that are always present - does this relate to Buddhanature?

Just to clarify - in yogacara, since the alaya transforms into gnosis, doe this mean the trikaya are not present from the beginning? Is this a denial of Buddhanature in yogacara?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

AJP
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by AJP » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:03 pm
AJP wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:01 pm
I don'y think they're the same but I'm not an academic. Once contains seeds of karma as a storehouse, whereas the other is beyond that which is the same for everyone.
Rig pa is the same for everyone? Where did you hear that?
Garchen Rinpoche taught that we all have the same-basis.

Obviously there are difference in how developed it is based on practice. //My point added

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:30 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:17 pm
Are these the same thing?
No. They are not.
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:17 pm
If this has been discussed here already, reference would be appreciated.
Here is an old thread on it Q: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6940 (for what it's worth).

Also, if you are on fb there are a number of threads on it in the private Ask the Ācārya group.

Virgo

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:57 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:17 pm
Are these the same thing?
If so,
Are there distinctions in the way alaya is described in Yogacara and rigpa in Dzogchen?

If this has been discussed here already, reference would be appreciated.
No, definitely not.

The all-basis consciousness is a product of ma rig pa, ignorance, the opposite of rig pa, knowledge.

In yogacāra, after the seeds of the all-basis consciousness is exhausted, it vanishes, along with the afflicted consciousness. It itself transforms into gnosis.

This process is not accepted in Dzogchen. Gnosis, or pristine consciousness, is present as the basis, and the basis is has the nature of the three kāyas. In Dzogchen, the three kāyas are not newly produced, but are always present in the form of potential.
I have never really understood this distinction. Under the above model, how is the purified alaya - mentioned in the Lankavatara for instance, different from Rigpa? I mean in that Sutra this purified alaya (if I remember right) is identified with the Dharmakaya once seeds are exhausted, which to me, is so similar to saying that "pristine consciousness has the nature of three kayas", simply without mentioning the Samboghakaya or Nirmanakaya. Similarly, the Lankavatara talks about ever present potential in the same way - at least implicitly, if not explicitly.

So if you had to boil it down, how is the position of Dzogchen different? What does it reject specifically about the Yogacara position?

I understand how this distinction is from a ...meditational viewpoint maybe, and understand why it is so central to Dzogchen practice but I do not understand the difference conceptually at all.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by the.eleven » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:41 am

Malcom, from the perspective of the Heart Essence presentation, there does not seem to be much focus on the alaya, or "basis of all," while in the lower yanas and yogacara, it is given greater significance. Why is the concept of the "alaya" less discussed within mengagde teachings?

One Western teacher uses the word "substrate" to reference "alaya," and further states that one must first achieve shamatha before the practitioner can break through this substrate to abide in rigpa. This seems to differ from other presentations of the path of trekchö, and it feels like a conflation with first wheel teachings. Could you comment on this?

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by ItsRaining » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:32 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:57 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:17 pm
Are these the same thing?
If so,
Are there distinctions in the way alaya is described in Yogacara and rigpa in Dzogchen?

If this has been discussed here already, reference would be appreciated.
No, definitely not.

The all-basis consciousness is a product of ma rig pa, ignorance, the opposite of rig pa, knowledge.

In yogacāra, after the seeds of the all-basis consciousness is exhausted, it vanishes, along with the afflicted consciousness. It itself transforms into gnosis.

This process is not accepted in Dzogchen. Gnosis, or pristine consciousness, is present as the basis, and the basis is has the nature of the three kāyas. In Dzogchen, the three kāyas are not newly produced, but are always present in the form of potential.
Ah. Ok.

In Xuanzhang's commentary on Vasubandhu's 30 verses, I recall a proposition of a purified 8th consciousness referred to by several names, but the one I recall now is amala. As I understand, in Yogacara the 8th consciousness is distinguished as alaya if defiled.

Does the purified 8th consciousness line up with rigpa? (is this purified 8th consciousness a unique interpretation by XZ?)

Are the three kayas in Dzogchen that are always present - does this relate to Buddhanature?

Just to clarify - in yogacara, since the alaya transforms into gnosis, doe this mean the trikaya are not present from the beginning? Is this a denial of Buddhanature in yogacara?
The Yogacara position is that wisdom is not present in sentient beings and only attainable in Buddhahood irc. Amala Vijnana is what the old Yogacara schools posited as the pristine 9th consciousness by Paramantha. Xuanzang interpreted this as the Wisdom which the Alaya transforms into at Buddhahood. Xuanzang like traditional Yogacarins posit that the 8th consciousness transforms into the Great Mirror-like Wisdom upon Buddhahood so upon Buddhahood the Alaya is not longer present.

Xuanzang’s Yogacara posits two types of Buddha Nature: Buddha Nature in Principle and Buddha Nature in Function. The former is the suchness which is revealed from the two kinds of emptiness and the latter is the pure seeds without outflows which determines the capacity of the being either Iccantik, Sravaka, Pratekaya, Buddha, or indeterminate. Without the latter there isn’t possibility of awakening since only with the seeds with outflows can in fruition lead to awakening revealing the latter. And seeds without outflows cannot be creates but simply be in the Alaya of the being as beings are never without outflows and cannot create further seeds without outflows.

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by TrimePema » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:11 am

ItsRaining wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:32 am
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:57 pm


No, definitely not.

The all-basis consciousness is a product of ma rig pa, ignorance, the opposite of rig pa, knowledge.

In yogacāra, after the seeds of the all-basis consciousness is exhausted, it vanishes, along with the afflicted consciousness. It itself transforms into gnosis.

This process is not accepted in Dzogchen. Gnosis, or pristine consciousness, is present as the basis, and the basis is has the nature of the three kāyas. In Dzogchen, the three kāyas are not newly produced, but are always present in the form of potential.
Ah. Ok.

In Xuanzhang's commentary on Vasubandhu's 30 verses, I recall a proposition of a purified 8th consciousness referred to by several names, but the one I recall now is amala. As I understand, in Yogacara the 8th consciousness is distinguished as alaya if defiled.

Does the purified 8th consciousness line up with rigpa? (is this purified 8th consciousness a unique interpretation by XZ?)

Are the three kayas in Dzogchen that are always present - does this relate to Buddhanature?

Just to clarify - in yogacara, since the alaya transforms into gnosis, doe this mean the trikaya are not present from the beginning? Is this a denial of Buddhanature in yogacara?
The Yogacara position is that wisdom is not present in sentient beings and only attainable in Buddhahood irc. Amala Vijnana is what the old Yogacara schools posited as the pristine 9th consciousness by Paramantha. Xuanzang interpreted this as the Wisdom which the Alaya transforms into at Buddhahood. Xuanzang like traditional Yogacarins posit that the 8th consciousness transforms into the Great Mirror-like Wisdom upon Buddhahood so upon Buddhahood the Alaya is not longer present.

Xuanzang’s Yogacara posits two types of Buddha Nature: Buddha Nature in Principle and Buddha Nature in Function. The former is the suchness which is revealed from the two kinds of emptiness and the latter is the pure seeds without outflows which determines the capacity of the being either Iccantik, Sravaka, Pratekaya, Buddha, or indeterminate. Without the latter there isn’t possibility of awakening since only with the seeds with outflows can in fruition lead to awakening revealing the latter. And seeds without outflows cannot be creates but simply be in the Alaya of the being as beings are never without outflows and cannot create further seeds without outflows.
Germano has a paper on the Alaya and Dzogchen. It's dense but it clears up confusion I think by presenting Longchenpa's fourfold kun zhi with the proper context for understanding the problems as mentioned above.

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:14 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:41 pm

I have never really understood this distinction. Under the above model, how is the purified alaya - mentioned in the Lankavatara for instance, different from Rigpa?
In Dzogchen, the ālaya is discarded, not purified.

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Caoimhghín » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:14 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:41 pm

I have never really understood this distinction. Under the above model, how is the purified alaya - mentioned in the Lankavatara for instance, different from Rigpa?
In Dzogchen, the ālaya is discarded, not purified.
:jawdrop: Like a śrāvaka!

I joke. Y'all can delete this. :spy:
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by smcj » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:54 pm

In Dzogchen, the ālaya is discarded, not purified.
:jawdrop: Like a śrāvaka!

I joke. Y'all can delete this. :spy:
In the Shravaka nothing is left, “without remainder”.
Germano has a paper on the Alaya and Dzogchen. It's dense but it clears up confusion I think by presenting Longchenpa's fourfold kun zhi with the proper context for understanding the problems as mentioned above.
Okay. Don’t be a tease. Do tell.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Misty » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:21 pm

"In Dzogchen, the ālaya is discarded, not purified."

Is this called "Togal"?

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 pm

Misty wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:21 pm
"In Dzogchen, the ālaya is discarded, not purified."

Is this called "Togal"?
No, this is at the level of the ultimate result, whether practicing either trekcho or thogal.

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by TrimePema » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 pm
Misty wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:21 pm
"In Dzogchen, the ālaya is discarded, not purified."

Is this called "Togal"?
No, this is at the level of the ultimate result, whether practicing either trekcho or thogal.
If i understand correctly, alaya is not a thing it is a term that denotes a collection of functions of ignorance. the ignorance ceases to operate in the Dzogchen level of the ultimate result and only the four kayas remain. This can be the result of either trekcho or thogal.
Last edited by TrimePema on Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TrimePema
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by TrimePema » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:36 pm

smcj wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:54 pm
In Dzogchen, the ālaya is discarded, not purified.
:jawdrop: Like a śrāvaka!

I joke. Y'all can delete this. :spy:
In the Shravaka nothing is left, “without remainder”.
Germano has a paper on the Alaya and Dzogchen. It's dense but it clears up confusion I think by presenting Longchenpa's fourfold kun zhi with the proper context for understanding the problems as mentioned above.
Okay. Don’t be a tease. Do tell.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?u ... i=scholarr

Misty
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Misty » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:02 pm

"No, this is at the level of the ultimate result, whether practicing either trekcho or thogal."

Thank you

Malcolm
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:27 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:34 pm
If i understand correctly, alaya is not a thing it is a term that denotes a collection of functions of ignorance. the ignorance ceases to operate in the Dzogchen level of the ultimate result and only the four kayas remain. This can be the result of either trekcho or thogal.
The all-basis, (kun gzhi, ālaya), is just ignorance; it is the Dzogchen term for what in other systems is called "the knowledge obscuration." This is why in the text called Stainless Space in the Lama Yang Tig, the mind, aka all-basis, is called "an obscuration to be abandoned."

It is distinct from the basis (gzhi, sthāna), which is never contaminated by ignorance.

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