Rigpa and Alayavijnana

the.eleven
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by the.eleven » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:27 pm
The all-basis, (kun gzhi, ālaya), is just ignorance; it is the Dzogchen term for what in other systems is called "the knowledge obscuration." This is why in the text called Stainless Space in the Lama Yang Tig, the mind, aka all-basis, is called "an obscuration to be abandoned."

It is distinct from the basis (gzhi, sthāna), which is never contaminated by ignorance.
This is very clear. Thanks!

Lukeinaz
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Lukeinaz » Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:51 pm

the.eleven wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:41 am
Malcom, from the perspective of the Heart Essence presentation, there does not seem to be much focus on the alaya, or "basis of all," while in the lower yanas and yogacara, it is given greater significance. Why is the concept of the "alaya" less discussed within mengagde teachings?

One Western teacher uses the word "substrate" to reference "alaya," and further states that one must first achieve shamatha before the practitioner can break through this substrate to abide in rigpa. This seems to differ from other presentations of the path of trekchö, and it feels like a conflation with first wheel teachings. Could you comment on this?
Not exactly what he has said.

What he has said very clearly is that nirvana can never come from the alaya. Which makes sense to me, because how could nirvana arise from a product of ignorance?

the.eleven
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by the.eleven » Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:58 pm

I wasn't paraphrasing anything Malcom wrote, nor offering critique.

Could you please clarify what you are referring to in your comment?

Lukeinaz
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Lukeinaz » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:37 pm

the.eleven wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:58 pm
I wasn't paraphrasing anything Malcom wrote, nor offering critique.

Could you please clarify what you are referring to in your comment?
Sorry for not being more clear.

It is commonly known that all of samsara and nirvana arise frim the alaya. I was referring to the western teacher you speak of not Malcom.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:57 am

Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:51 pm
the.eleven wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:41 am
Malcom, from the perspective of the Heart Essence presentation, there does not seem to be much focus on the alaya, or "basis of all," while in the lower yanas and yogacara, it is given greater significance. Why is the concept of the "alaya" less discussed within mengagde teachings?

One Western teacher uses the word "substrate" to reference "alaya," and further states that one must first achieve shamatha before the practitioner can break through this substrate to abide in rigpa. This seems to differ from other presentations of the path of trekchö, and it feels like a conflation with first wheel teachings. Could you comment on this?
Not exactly what he has said.

What he has said very clearly is that nirvana can never come from the alaya. Which makes sense to me, because how could nirvana arise from a product of ignorance?

It's not really even that close to what he says that I know of- if it's BAW we're talking about. What he says is that the Jhanas are not necessary but that achieving the first one/Shamatha really helps in terms of Dzogchen. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but if people are going to criticize they should probably be more specific, and I don't think its that controversial of a position either..
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Queequeg
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Queequeg » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:17 pm

Thank you guys for the responses and then the follow up discussions.
I clearly need to learn more to understand most of what was discussed above!
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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jake5521
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by jake5521 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:40 pm

I have heard some pretty good explanations from Lama Jigme Rinpoche on alaya consciousness. Thanks for the other posts too, great to read.

Lama Jigme Rinpoche
https://padmarigdzinling.org/

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Josef
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Josef » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:41 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:57 am
Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:51 pm
the.eleven wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:41 am
Malcom, from the perspective of the Heart Essence presentation, there does not seem to be much focus on the alaya, or "basis of all," while in the lower yanas and yogacara, it is given greater significance. Why is the concept of the "alaya" less discussed within mengagde teachings?

One Western teacher uses the word "substrate" to reference "alaya," and further states that one must first achieve shamatha before the practitioner can break through this substrate to abide in rigpa. This seems to differ from other presentations of the path of trekchö, and it feels like a conflation with first wheel teachings. Could you comment on this?
Not exactly what he has said.

What he has said very clearly is that nirvana can never come from the alaya. Which makes sense to me, because how could nirvana arise from a product of ignorance?

It's not really even that close to what he says that I know of- if it's BAW we're talking about. What he says is that the Jhanas are not necessary but that achieving the first one/Shamatha really helps in terms of Dzogchen. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but if people are going to criticize they should probably be more specific, and I don't think its that controversial of a position either..
Since shamatha is basically one of the four yogas of semde this position that it is helpful makes sense. BAW gets criticized legitimately when this is presented as a prerequisite for practicing Dzogchen.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:47 pm

Josef wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:41 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:57 am
Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:51 pm


Not exactly what he has said.

What he has said very clearly is that nirvana can never come from the alaya. Which makes sense to me, because how could nirvana arise from a product of ignorance?

It's not really even that close to what he says that I know of- if it's BAW we're talking about. What he says is that the Jhanas are not necessary but that achieving the first one/Shamatha really helps in terms of Dzogchen. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but if people are going to criticize they should probably be more specific, and I don't think its that controversial of a position either..
Since shamatha is basically one of the four yogas of semde this position that it is helpful makes sense. BAW gets criticized legitimately when this is presented as a prerequisite for practicing Dzogchen.
Where does he actually do that? And how are you differentiating "helpful" from "necessary" here? Factually, there are all kinds of Dzogchen instruction manuals that start out with a very basic experience of Shamatha as a prerequisite (often talking about the signs once one is sufficient), and plenty of semde teachings use Shamatha as the vehicle for introduction and contemplation.

So to make such a criticism, we need to be specific, or it actually is not legitimate because it is too vague a criticism to mean anything.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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SonamTashi
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by SonamTashi » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:08 pm

jake5521 wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:40 pm
I have heard some pretty good explanations from Lama Jigme Rinpoche on alaya consciousness. Thanks for the other posts too, great to read.

Lama Jigme Rinpoche
https://padmarigdzinling.org/
Is this lama legit? The only place I can find information about him is on his website and the website for the Lohan Spiritual and Cultural Center in Las Vegas. Given that it is fairly close to me I was considering checking it out, but I don't want to waste my time if he isn't legitimate. Some of the services he offers seem a little strange for a Tibetan Buddhist. For example, the Feng Shui counselling.
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:

nagpo
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by nagpo » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:02 pm

But how do you directly experience alayavijnana? How Can you percieve or dustinguish it experientially? How is lungmaten related with that?

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Josef
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Josef » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:50 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:47 pm
Josef wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:41 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:57 am



It's not really even that close to what he says that I know of- if it's BAW we're talking about. What he says is that the Jhanas are not necessary but that achieving the first one/Shamatha really helps in terms of Dzogchen. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but if people are going to criticize they should probably be more specific, and I don't think its that controversial of a position either..
Since shamatha is basically one of the four yogas of semde this position that it is helpful makes sense. BAW gets criticized legitimately when this is presented as a prerequisite for practicing Dzogchen.
Where does he actually do that? And how are you differentiating "helpful" from "necessary" here? Factually, there are all kinds of Dzogchen instruction manuals that start out with a very basic experience of Shamatha as a prerequisite (often talking about the signs once one is sufficient), and plenty of semde teachings use Shamatha as the vehicle for introduction and contemplation.

So to make such a criticism, we need to be specific, or it actually is not legitimate because it is too vague a criticism to mean anything.
He does this is Stilling the Mind. It actually made the book somewhat problematic.
Shamatha is always helpful, it is by no means a necessary pre-requisite to Dzogchen since it is accomplished via Dzogchen practice.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Malcolm
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:24 pm

nagpo wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:02 pm
But how do you directly experience alayavijnana? How Can you percieve or dustinguish it experientially? How is lungmaten related with that?
One can’t.

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:48 pm

Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:50 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:47 pm
Josef wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:41 pm


Since shamatha is basically one of the four yogas of semde this position that it is helpful makes sense. BAW gets criticized legitimately when this is presented as a prerequisite for practicing Dzogchen.
Where does he actually do that? And how are you differentiating "helpful" from "necessary" here? Factually, there are all kinds of Dzogchen instruction manuals that start out with a very basic experience of Shamatha as a prerequisite (often talking about the signs once one is sufficient), and plenty of semde teachings use Shamatha as the vehicle for introduction and contemplation.

So to make such a criticism, we need to be specific, or it actually is not legitimate because it is too vague a criticism to mean anything.
He does this is Stilling the Mind. It actually made the book somewhat problematic.
Shamatha is always helpful, it is by no means a necessary pre-requisite to Dzogchen since it is accomplished via Dzogchen practice.
Can you describe how he does that,like what he actually says vs your interpretation?
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Josef
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Josef » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:03 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:48 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:50 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:47 pm


Where does he actually do that? And how are you differentiating "helpful" from "necessary" here? Factually, there are all kinds of Dzogchen instruction manuals that start out with a very basic experience of Shamatha as a prerequisite (often talking about the signs once one is sufficient), and plenty of semde teachings use Shamatha as the vehicle for introduction and contemplation.

So to make such a criticism, we need to be specific, or it actually is not legitimate because it is too vague a criticism to mean anything.
He does this is Stilling the Mind. It actually made the book somewhat problematic.
Shamatha is always helpful, it is by no means a necessary pre-requisite to Dzogchen since it is accomplished via Dzogchen practice.
Can you describe how he does that,like what he actually says vs your interpretation?
I dont have the book in front of me but worked on it's initial publication. During that process this was the challenge with the book. It wasnt only my interpretation, this was the feedback from Nyingma masters that I asked to give the book an endorsement as well.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:21 pm

Still doesn’t tell me what he says that you object to. The reason I ask is that I am taking his Wisdom Experience courses, and what you are saying here is contradictory to what I am getting from them. Might just be me, but given those factors I can’t regard it as valid criticism without more specifics, because so far what I have learned has been in accord with other semde presentations, perhaps with a little extra shamatha cheerleading.

I also think the courses are excellent in general, and quite lucid, so that’s my bias.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Josef
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Josef » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:32 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:21 pm
Still doesn’t tell me what he says that you object to. The reason I ask is that I am taking his Wisdom Experience courses, and what you are saying here is contradictory to what I am getting from them. Might just be me, but given those factors I can’t regard it as valid criticism without more specifics, because so far what I have learned has been in accord with other semde presentations, perhaps with a little extra shamatha cheerleading.

I also think the courses are excellent in general, and quite lucid, so that’s my bias.
Okay, I've merely recounted my experience of working on a book by BAW about a decade ago. The critique was primarily from Nyingma lamas that he was positioning shamatha as a prerequisite for Dzogchen, he may have corrected that error by now.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:56 am

Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:32 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:21 pm
Still doesn’t tell me what he says that you object to. The reason I ask is that I am taking his Wisdom Experience courses, and what you are saying here is contradictory to what I am getting from them. Might just be me, but given those factors I can’t regard it as valid criticism without more specifics, because so far what I have learned has been in accord with other semde presentations, perhaps with a little extra shamatha cheerleading.

I also think the courses are excellent in general, and quite lucid, so that’s my bias.
Okay, I've merely recounted my experience of working on a book by BAW about a decade ago. The critique was primarily from Nyingma lamas that he was positioning shamatha as a prerequisite for Dzogchen, he may have corrected that error by now.
Fair enough, I should read the book in full, I've only read excerpts.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

haha
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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by haha » Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:20 am

nagpo wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:02 pm
But how do you directly experience alayavijnana? How Can you percieve or dustinguish it experientially? How is lungmaten related with that?
I have the opinion that experienced teacher can help you to distinguish them. It can be distinguished: one can know this is mind, this is mental factors, this is bhavanga, this is alaya, this is sensation, this is wisdom, this is cessation, etc. There is demarcation to distinguish them.

If one has basic foundation of vipassana whether that is based on Theravadi model or that is based on Vajrayana model. One can read abhidharma and related materials, and then, one can practically apply it for this purpose.

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Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:21 am

haha wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:20 am
nagpo wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:02 pm
But how do you directly experience alayavijnana? How Can you percieve or dustinguish it experientially? How is lungmaten related with that?
I have the opinion that experienced teacher can help you to distinguish them. It can be distinguished: one can know this is mind, this is mental factors, this is bhavanga, this is alaya, this is sensation, this is wisdom, this is cessation, etc. There is demarcation to distinguish them.
Your opinion is not shared by Vimalamitra.

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