Decreased interest in Tantric practice

tingdzin
Posts: 1289
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by tingdzin » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:12 am

The O.P's question has seemingly been answered adequately for his situation,but it may be different for others. (although Guru Yoga practice is never a bad idea, for anyone, I think). Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche once said that if your practice gets stale, you might try to reconnect with the original aspect that you found attractive. If (and this is me speaking now, not CTR) your interest in sadhana practice at first was kept vital by the novelty of the practice or the raw power of the imagery, that's perfectly O.K. to start with, but these things may over time become less compelling and the practice a chore, if you have not connected with the real meaning and purpose of the practice. This has happened to any number of my Dharma friends over the years. One could at that point give up sadhana practice, but as a previous poster said, once you abandon it, it's harder to get back into it. So the trick is obviously to make the connection before this happens. IMO, unless you are born into a culture that this stuff is part of, the best and maybe only way of doing this is to do retreat on that sadhana until you get at least a glimmering of its meaning. If you do a Guru Yoga sadhana with a teacher you have an authentic connection with, that makes things immeasureably easier. In the Nyingmapa, some teachers say that of you get to the meat of any sadhana, it will carry over into others. But, really, as another poster said, even truly practicing one, including Guru Yoga, is quite good.

On the other hand, sadhana practice, and Vajrayana in general, is not for everybody.

yagmort
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by yagmort » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:10 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:40 pm
...I just find myself increasingly annoyed by the exactness and detail of Tantra in places...

...The part that makes me feel tired is (especially in Kriya and Charya) all the little details, extensive preliminary prayers etc. It almost feels like too many words to actually focus on the experiential content sometimes...
is there any particular lineage within Tibetan Buddhism which keeps intricasy at a necessary minimum? i am an amateur at ngöndro level and i've never attend a teaching (well, i did attend 2 but that's because of other's person request) because i want to stay with what my teacher actually telling me to do. i'd like to keep it simple. better few practices, but well selected and profound ones. otherwise i will find myself in the same boat as Johnny. i am glad my ngöndro is condensed one, but i m not sure if it will stay the same with further practices.

User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 3635
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:21 pm

I am going to post here again because for me this is also a very relevant topic.
I was watching a video by the current Kalu Rinpoche. He has a lot of them on Facebook, and also does an hour of live streaming Q&A on Sundays (around 9:00am New York time).
In a video about guru devotion / guru yoga, he mentions two types of students he frequently meets, who were also students of the previous Kalu Rinpoche. One type tells him, “I’ve had this empowerment and that empowerment and from this lama and from that lama and I do this practice I do that practice, and I did a three year retreat and another three year retreat, Rinpoche, what kind of practice should I do?”
And the other type days, “I took refuge with the last Kalu Rinpoche, and I do the Chenrezig practice and have been doing that for many years”.
...and what Kalu Rinpoche says here is that the first type of student never really gets the point of doing the practice. It never really gets in, meaning that just because someone is doing lots of practices or whatever, don’t compare yourself to others. As he often says, “that will take you in the wrong direction”.

Vajrayana Buddhism is very elaborate. And as one friend of mine said, it’s like people who build tiny model railroads. There’s no end to how much detail you can put into it, how much time, or money, you can spend on it, or how elaborate you want to get with it. But all of those elaborations have a meaning. They aren’t just decorations, or how many yidams can you visualize, or how many prostrations can you do.

All those things are just tools. Keys to open the door.
If you feel you don’t connect as deeply with the vajrayana practice, then maybe for now you’ve just reached a plateau. Maybe just a little meditation and a little bit of study and maybe some visualization is all you really need right now, and maybe just now and then. You don’t have to go to the dharma center three times a week for all these practices and singing and banging drums.

On the other hand, things are always changing, and you may find, in a year, that devoting more time and energy to that is exactly what fits. You might have a close encounter with the reality of your own impermanence, a brush with death, as they say, and then all you want to do after that is dharma practice. Who knows? It can all go either way.
Profile Picture: "The Fo Ming (Buddha Bright) Monk"
People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4924
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by heart » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:55 pm

yagmort wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:10 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:40 pm
...I just find myself increasingly annoyed by the exactness and detail of Tantra in places...

...The part that makes me feel tired is (especially in Kriya and Charya) all the little details, extensive preliminary prayers etc. It almost feels like too many words to actually focus on the experiential content sometimes...
is there any particular lineage within Tibetan Buddhism which keeps intricasy at a necessary minimum? i am an amateur at ngöndro level and i've never attend a teaching (well, i did attend 2 but that's because of other's person request) because i want to stay with what my teacher actually telling me to do. i'd like to keep it simple. better few practices, but well selected and profound ones. otherwise i will find myself in the same boat as Johnny. i am glad my ngöndro is condensed one, but i m not sure if it will stay the same with further practices.
Not really a lineage but there are cycles of practice that are very unelaborate, like Chetsun Nyingtik for example.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

yagmort
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by yagmort » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:20 pm

thank you magnus.
could you please name its lineage holders? if possible, preferably accessible ones who are more like actual humble practitioners not high lamas or Rinpoches (not to say that high lamas or Rinpoches aren't actual humble practitioners..)

also, what about Dudjom Tersar in general and Thröma Nakmo in particular? where do they stand on "intricasy" level?

Sennin
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Sennin » Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:19 pm

yagmort wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:20 pm
thank you magnus.
could you please name its lineage holders? if possible, preferably accessible ones who are more like actual humble practitioners not high lamas or Rinpoches (not to say that high lamas or Rinpoches aren't actual humble practitioners..)
In regards to Chetsun Nyingtik,
Khenpo Namdrol comes to mind however it is very diffused so many teachers have that transmission, although I'm not certain how often it's given. According to the teachings it's only meant to be given to a small group at a time I think 3, 7 or 21.

Malcolm
Posts: 31151
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:20 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:21 pm


Vajrayana Buddhism is very elaborate.
It can be, but does not have to be.

Malcolm
Posts: 31151
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:21 pm

yagmort wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:20 pm

also, what about Dudjom Tersar in general and Thröma Nakmo in particular? where do they stand on "intricasy" level?
For daily practice, not so bad. Troma is a complete path, but you do have to learn how to place chod instruments.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4924
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by heart » Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:06 pm

yagmort wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:20 pm
thank you magnus.
could you please name its lineage holders? if possible, preferably accessible ones who are more like actual humble practitioners not high lamas or Rinpoches (not to say that high lamas or Rinpoches aren't actual humble practitioners..)
Like Sennin said, there are many master that have this transmission. You could ask the ones that you truly trust.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

yagmort
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by yagmort » Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:18 am

Sennin, Malcolm, Magnus - thank you guys.
Sennin wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:19 pm
... so many teachers have that transmission...
i am maybe mistaken, but having a transmission doesn't necessary make it a heart practice? please, correct me.
i should have been more specific as i am interested in those who keep chetsün nyingthik as their main practice.

User avatar
rory
Posts: 1574
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by rory » Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:18 am

Maybe you need a bit of a break? Why not visit a Vietnamese or Chinese temple around you.They're basically Chan/Zen-Pure Land: meditation and chanting. Pretty straight-forward, plus the visuals are less intense and you're around more laid-back born Buddhists.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 3635
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:50 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:20 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:21 pm
Vajrayana Buddhism is very elaborate.
It can be, but does not have to be.
That’s true.
What I meant was,
the point of doing vajrayana practice isn’t to do more vajrayana practice.
The point is to develop qualities (compassion, wisdom, etc.) with the aim of attaining perfect realization for the sake of all sentient beings. The proper motivation is what counts most.
Vajrayana has developed elaborate rituals and practices to help the practitioner, and it is very easy to get “really into it” and then later, not so much. This sometimes leaves a person wondering, “why don’t I feel it any more?”
If you have motivation, the bodhicitta, don’t worry too much about feeling one way or another. Keep up some kind of practice routine, and things will usually adjust themselves. Accordingly.
Profile Picture: "The Fo Ming (Buddha Bright) Monk"
People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4924
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by heart » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:23 am

yagmort wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:18 am
Sennin, Malcolm, Magnus - thank you guys.
Sennin wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:19 pm
... so many teachers have that transmission...
i am maybe mistaken, but having a transmission doesn't necessary make it a heart practice? please, correct me.
i should have been more specific as i am interested in those who keep chetsün nyingthik as their main practice.
I have no idea what my root masters main practice is after 35 years, so that sounds difficult to me. You need to trust the masters realisation and that he/she have a genuine lineage for the particular practice, that is enough. If you do long retreats on this practice you could later try to find someone that have accomplished this particular practice for further instructions. Not an easy thing.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 10778
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:31 pm

rory wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:18 am
Maybe you need a bit of a break? Why not visit a Vietnamese or Chinese temple around you.They're basically Chan/Zen-Pure Land: meditation and chanting. Pretty straight-forward, plus the visuals are less intense and you're around more laid-back born Buddhists.
gassho
Rory
I've already done this. Years of Buddhist "shopping around" before I settled on Vajrayana, not looking for a new path, that's why it's in the Dzogchen section.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

pemachophel
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by pemachophel » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:28 am

I apologize upfront for not having read the whole thread. My connection here inShravasti is slow.

In Nyingma, one reason to take wang is to be able to do practice. However, another reason is for “ripening.” Soeven taking a wang for something you have intention of practicing can have beneficial effects as long as one keeps samaya. In Nyingma, taking wangs can be seen as a kind of practice in and of itself.

Another reason is to form a karmic connection for future life/lives.

However, very important to want a karmic connection with the bestowing Teacher. If don’t want that connection, should not take the wang.

Just my two cents. Sorry if irrelevant.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

Crazywisdom
Posts: 2063
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:12 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:51 pm
I have found my interest in new Tantric practices waning over time. Prior to taking teachings from ChNN I received a lot of initiations, and generally took attending them quite seriously. Since this time I have the reoccurring feeling that I have enough of them, and find it harder to get all ginned up about them. I do one Sadhana regularly and that's about it.

I have an opportunity coming up to receive an empowerment I should probably get, but at the time, I don't feel particularly inspired. I will be attending the retreat where it's being offered regardless.

How does one handle this?
On one side I look at development stage as the guru yoga of, "I'm trying to understand stage," and the completion stage as the, "Now I understand stage."

Tantric methods will always be useful for realized masters because they have understood bochichitta and do whatever beings require at the moment.

One the other side, having a waning interest in systems and routines can be a sign of realizing the sameness of all phenomena and point to insight and wisdom.

Or it could mean you are feeling discouraged by lack of progress, in that case, use this instant to review the pith introductions that there is nothing accomplished and no one to accomplish it in the space lacking time. See the point of natural awareness and then you are enjoying the fruit of all these method.

AJP
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:48 am

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by AJP » Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:34 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:12 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:51 pm
I have found my interest in new Tantric practices waning over time. Prior to taking teachings from ChNN I received a lot of initiations, and generally took attending them quite seriously. Since this time I have the reoccurring feeling that I have enough of them, and find it harder to get all ginned up about them. I do one Sadhana regularly and that's about it.

I have an opportunity coming up to receive an empowerment I should probably get, but at the time, I don't feel particularly inspired. I will be attending the retreat where it's being offered regardless.

How does one handle this?
On one side I look at development stage as the guru yoga of, "I'm trying to understand stage," and the completion stage as the, "Now I understand stage."

Tantric methods will always be useful for realized masters because they have understood bochichitta and do whatever beings require at the moment.

One the other side, having a waning interest in systems and routines can be a sign of realizing the sameness of all phenomena and point to insight and wisdom.

Or it could mean you are feeling discouraged by lack of progress, in that case, use this instant to review the pith introductions that there is nothing accomplished and no one to accomplish it in the space lacking time. See the point of natural awareness and then you are enjoying the fruit of all these method.
:good:

Ignorant_Fool
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:20 am

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Ignorant_Fool » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:39 pm

The outer appearance, position, and tradition of the Master are not important. What is important is to know the purpose of the teaching. Otherwise, we will condition ourselves with the outward appearance, position, and tradition of the Master and create many problems for ourselves and others.

Guruyoga is not a tradition. And it is not about considering a certain master as one’s boss or as the head of a school. Some practitioners, thinking they are followers of a particular teaching or tradition, hold to their specific way of doing the Guruyoga and reject the way others do it. Thinking in this limited manner, they confuse themselves and sometimes, feeling unsatisfied with the words of their Guruyoga, they do another, confusing themselves even more. In this case, it is better to leave aside all this confusion and start from zero. There is no need to accept or confirm anything at all. If you really have knowledge of your own state, that is enough. - CNNR

tingdzin
Posts: 1289
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by tingdzin » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:51 am

High-sounding words, however, will not help you get through the nitty-gritty of difficult practice times.

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 10778
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:27 am

tingdzin wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:51 am
High-sounding words, however, will not help you get through the nitty-gritty of difficult practice times.
I definitely don't consider ChNN's advice up there to be "high-sounding words", in fact they were exactly what I needed to hear, as his words tend to be for me.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Fa Dao, Inge, javier.espinoza.t, mandog, nagarjuna_respektor, PSM, Sādhaka, Tata1 and 52 guests