Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

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pemachophel
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Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by pemachophel »

Quoted by Khentrul Lodo Thaye,

“If renunciation and bodhicitta are absent, a person cannot sow the seeds of liberation even after nine years of Dzogchen retreat.” - Patrul Rinpoche
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

:good:

Patrul Rinpoche always gets to the point.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
Danny
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Danny »

pemachophel wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:50 pm Quoted by Khentrul Lodo Thaye,

“If renunciation and bodhicitta are absent, a person cannot sow the seeds of liberation even after nine years of Dzogchen retreat.” - Patrul Rinpoche
Well if one is in 9 years of retreat that would be a renunciation right? Bodhicitta here means “mind and heart”. Patrul being clever as usual.
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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

Danny wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 pm Well if one is in 9 years of retreat that would be a renunciation right? Bodhicitta here means “mind and heart”. Patrul being clever as usual.
If you are in retreat but don't stop thinking of worldy affairs and are motivated by the eight worldly dharmas you don't have renunciation.

What do you mean by "mind and heart"?
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ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
Terma
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Terma »

Lobsang Chojor wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:23 am
Danny wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 pm Well if one is in 9 years of retreat that would be a renunciation right? Bodhicitta here means “mind and heart”. Patrul being clever as usual.
If you are in retreat but don't stop thinking of worldy affairs and are motivated by the eight worldly dharmas you don't have renunciation.
:good:
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Danny »

Then what is the purpose of retreat, better to not be in retreat but to live a full and happy life instead of a self imposed exile in misery.
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Ayu »

Danny wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:00 pm ... instead of a self imposed exile in misery.
I wouldn't expect retreat to be that bad. If there is not enough time for dharma practice and people won't stop demanding your attention this can be quite a bigger misery. :)
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Danny »

I’m teasing out the attitude about renunciation in the dzogchen sub forum, trying not to interject too much, its not my thread, it’s not my misery :jumping:
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Ayu »

Danny wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:19 pm I’m teasing out the attitude about renunciation in the dzogchen sub forum, trying not to interject too much, its not my thread, it’s not my misery :jumping:
Ah - I often don't get online jokes and I accidently laugh out loud when people take something seriously. :shrug:
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Danny »

Ayu wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:31 pm
Danny wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:19 pm I’m teasing out the attitude about renunciation in the dzogchen sub forum, trying not to interject too much, its not my thread, it’s not my misery :jumping:
Ah - I often don't get online jokes and I accidently laugh out loud when people take something seriously. :shrug:
I get it. Here’s the thing, retreat obviously can be of benefit and is something positive, perhaps benefit for the individual on retreat. But also can be something negative for those around the individual. Remember we are not living in 17th-19th century Tibet. Our society is more complex today, saying to wife, mother, kids, husband etc,
I’m off on a 9 year retreat, Sell the house the car , your on your own whilst I go and sort out my misery and shut out the world, after nine years you changed ( maybe???) but the world around you moved on, and maybe nothing changed, that is something negative.
What’s the point? Better to stay in the world and work with it, and enjoy it. You can renounce and still move through it. No problems. But doing the above makes problems.
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Jeff H »

I think the point of the quote is "sowing seeds of liberation". With renunciation and bodhichitta, you can do that in society or on retreat; Without them you can't sow seeds of liberation period.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Danny »

Jeff H wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:18 pm I think the point of the quote is "sowing seeds of liberation". With renunciation and bodhichitta, you can do that in society or on retreat; Without them you can't sow seeds of liberation period.
Hi Jeff, Patrul was quite the trouble maker in his day, was actually critical of lazy lamas, was berated and chased out, became a wanderer. So his critique of the state of affairs in his day was relevant. That’s the context of the quote, it’s a obvious quote and nothing special in it on one level. Yet Patrul had a knack in his language of what I call “performance art”. His use of language to turn thought through language into action. Nobody likes being called lazy. So is a motivation to action born from being critical. So now becomes something special.
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by heart »

Dzogchen is not the path of renunciation, but that doesn't mean there isn't a practice of renunciation in Dzogchen. The seven mind trainings from Vima Nyingtik and the four mind trainings from The Khandro Nyingtik are both a part of ChNNR SMS training for example. In Dzogchen renunciation means understanding the nature of the world, how it actually is. How our condition is, as ChNNR would have put it. The outcome of training in this kind of renunciation is not to take a vow or ordain yourself, you don't need to change anything. But when you understand your own condition you understand that this condition is the same for all sentient. To recognise the sadness of samsara and to wish to help liberate all sentient beings to recognise their natural state that never been hidden or impaired in any way through endless lives and death in samsara is the real bodhicitta.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Danny »

heart wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:47 pmt o recognise the sadness of samsara and to wish to help liberate all sentient beings to recognise their natural state that never been hidden or impaired in any way through endless lives and death in samsara is the real bodhicitta.

/magnus
Yes, mind and heart, to answer lobsangs question.
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Jeff H »

I would add to Magnus' comments that Gelugpas take renunciation to be more about detaching from things than necessarily relinquishing them. Ordination and retreat capitalize on relinquishing, but renunciation is the mental shift underlying the ability to relinquish.

Danny, I don't think knowledge of the context of Patrul's quote or the controversies about him diminish the value of the adage on its face.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Danny »

Jeff H wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:30 pm
Danny, I don't think knowledge of the context of Patrul's quote or the controversies about him diminish the value of the adage on its face.
That’s fine, we all take what we need out of it.
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by yagmort »

Danny wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:42 pm ...saying to wife, mother, kids, husband etc, I’m off on a 9 year retreat, Sell the house the car , your on your own whilst I go and sort out my misery and shut out the world, after nine years you changed ( maybe???)...
that is silly example. maybe one shouldn't have accumulated all those responsibilities in the first place? to get married, have kids, job and being fully incorporated into modern society and after all that raise renunciation flag and enter 9 year retreat is rather extreme. still can be done if we swap painting for Dharma in "The Moon and Sixpence" )
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Danny »

Da!

But I get your point.
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Re: Quote from Patrul Rinpoche

Post by Josef »

Lobsang Chojor wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:23 am
Danny wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 pm Well if one is in 9 years of retreat that would be a renunciation right? Bodhicitta here means “mind and heart”. Patrul being clever as usual.
If you are in retreat but don't stop thinking of worldy affairs and are motivated by the eight worldly dharmas you don't have renunciation.

What do you mean by "mind and heart"?
The supports for practice. Without them one couldnt engage in retreat at all so...
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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