florin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:54 pm
Norwegian wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:31 pm
florin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:10 pm
Some questions arise though about whether there are samayas to uphold in the case where say, an individual coming from theravada is interested in dzogchen and participates in a word empowerment without ever receiving tantric initiations.
Will that person have any samaya to uphold when not in the natural state ?
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu was very clear on this. Whether closed or open retreat, whether webcast or not, whenever there is direct introduction, there is always samaya. A few times that I can remember (which means from 2004 when I first received teachings from him, and until 2018
), he did go into detail about this topic, and said that by receiving direct introduction, you also receive samaya - always - and that this meant the twenty-seven root samaya, the twenty-five branch samaya, and so on, just like Longchenpa outlined in his Lama Yangthig, just like Khenpo Ngakchung outlined in his Zintri, and so on.
It is not at all the case that by not receiving any Vajrayana whatsoever, and only Dzogchen, you somehow bypass samaya. So there's samaya in both Vajrayana and Dzogchen. Also, note that these samayas mentioned here, are the default samayas that a Dzogchen practitioner should uphold. You can and should read Ngari Panchen with Dudjom Rinpoche's commentary on this subject matter, along with Jigme Lingpa's text, and Kongtrul's text.
The four samayas of Dzogchen aren't really samayas per se as such, they are aspects of the natural state, which means that if you abide in the natural state, then of course these four aspects are present in full. If you do not abide in the natural state, they are not there, which then in a sense means you are continuously violating these four samaya. And that is why when you are not in the natural state, you must uphold the twenty-seven, the twenty-five, and so on. It's very straight forward.
And no disrespect intended but if you look at the contents of some of those samayas it would be quite difficult to see how they apply to the case i suggested.
It would also be the case for people who only practised sutra in the tibetan tradition never participating in tantric initiations.
I see no problems whatsoever here. The direct introduction is an empowerment, and by receiving this empowerment, you also receive samaya.
You can review teachings on this by ChNN, you can read Longchenpa, Ngari Panchen, Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigme Lingpa, Kongtrul, Khenpo Ngakchung, and literally any other Dzogchen teacher as well as the Dzogchen tantras themselves. And here, one needs to understand that the most important tantras of Dzogchen, belongs to the Innermost Unexcelled Secret Cycle of the Menngagde. These are the 17 Tantras, and the Dra Thal Gyur Tantra is the actual root tantra of the 17.
This tantra ChNN gave the transmission of, something he did because a.) It's an incredibly important tantra, and b.) It was announced to be translated by the three primary translators of the Dzogchen Community, along with its commentary by Vimalamitra. Also Malcolm will translate this tantra and its commentary, since he is working on the 17 Tantras as a translation project, in collaboration with Wisdom Publishing.
ChNN in general never mentioned the samaya in a detailed manner, one after another, he instead condensed their essential meaning into a few easy to remember points, which means that by being engaged in the advice he gave means you will also uphold those samaya.
The idea however, that in Dzogchen there are only four samaya, is not only erroneous, it's also ridiculous. This kind of thinking is a deviation (gol sa) of the highest order, and it only leads to trouble.