Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Danny
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Danny »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:07 pm
heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:14 pm
Danny wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:40 pm You don’t need tantric vows to practice dzogchen. What you need is direct introduction from a teacher that meets all the qualifications, I.e. a teacher that teaches in perfect harmony with Garab Dorjes three statements.
Then later if your interested, you can discover the differences between initiation, empowerment, blessings, vows, samayas etc of the tantric system.
Actually there are samayas in Dzogchen. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Samaya

/magnus
Sort of, yes. But they all basically boil down to: don't be a dick.
Yep, people put too much importance to it,
I mean you’ll find out about it when the breath stops.
Live free and be happy! Be nice to each other.
florin
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by florin »

heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:14 pm
Danny wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:40 pm You don’t need tantric vows to practice dzogchen. What you need is direct introduction from a teacher that meets all the qualifications, I.e. a teacher that teaches in perfect harmony with Garab Dorjes three statements.
Then later if your interested, you can discover the differences between initiation, empowerment, blessings, vows, samayas etc of the tantric system.
Actually there are samayas in Dzogchen. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Samaya

/magnus
Actually dzogchen transcends the 10 natures of tantra.
Norwegian
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Norwegian »

florin wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:14 pm
heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:14 pm
Danny wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:40 pm You don’t need tantric vows to practice dzogchen. What you need is direct introduction from a teacher that meets all the qualifications, I.e. a teacher that teaches in perfect harmony with Garab Dorjes three statements.
Then later if your interested, you can discover the differences between initiation, empowerment, blessings, vows, samayas etc of the tantric system.
Actually there are samayas in Dzogchen. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Samaya

/magnus
Actually dzogchen transcends the 10 natures of tantra.
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu said a number of times over the years, that by receiving direct introduction, you also receive samaya, which includes the twenty-seven, the twenty-five, the four, etc., exactly as mentioned by Khenpo Ngakchung in above article.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
florin
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by florin »

Norwegian wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:21 pm
florin wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:14 pm
heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:14 pm

Actually there are samayas in Dzogchen. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Samaya

/magnus
Actually dzogchen transcends the 10 natures of tantra.
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu said a number of times over the years, that by receiving direct introduction, you also receive samaya, which includes the twenty-seven, the twenty-five, the four, etc., exactly as mentioned by Khenpo Ngakchung in above article.
Sure, do that.
Malcolm
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:14 pm
heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:14 pm
Danny wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:40 pm You don’t need tantric vows to practice dzogchen. What you need is direct introduction from a teacher that meets all the qualifications, I.e. a teacher that teaches in perfect harmony with Garab Dorjes three statements.
Then later if your interested, you can discover the differences between initiation, empowerment, blessings, vows, samayas etc of the tantric system.
Actually there are samayas in Dzogchen. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Samaya

/magnus
Actually dzogchen transcends the 10 natures of tantra.
The nature of the mind does, but not the mind. It’s important to make a distinction between these two. When we see the ten principles of tantra being rejected in dzogcheb texts, they being rejected from the point of view of the basis, but not necessarily the path, which is why the Rigpa rangshar, the sgra thal gyur, and other tantras teach the necessity of empowerment, samaya, mandalas, and so on. The root tantra of dzogchen is not the kun byed rgyal po, but rather, the sgra thal gyur.
Danny
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Danny »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:18 pm
florin wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:14 pm
heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:14 pm

Actually there are samayas in Dzogchen. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Samaya

/magnus
Actually dzogchen transcends the 10 natures of tantra.
The root tantra of dzogchen is not the kun byed rgyal po, but rather, the sgra thal gyur.
A copy should be arriving today, what I really wanted was the commentary text, but alas so far is only in Tibetan, and from my understanding the text is difficult and my Tibetan is only good for reading cereal boxes. I did get the lung for it from master Norbu years ago.
Danny
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Danny »

As a side note of interest, and a huge caveat here as I’m going from memory of over 15 years ago, Rinpoche mentioned that he had been working on 3 copies of the sgra thal gyur, One was the existing copy, another was discovered in a private collection and was hard to obtain, large filo front to back and 9 lines long. And the third was a compared version of both with corrections and heavy annotations. I’m guessing the DC folk are producing the one with the corrections and annotations and Commentary, hoping that will be the definitive version.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Danny wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:32 pm As a side note of interest, and a huge caveat here as I’m going from memory of over 15 years ago, Rinpoche mentioned that he had been working on 3 copies of the sgra thal gyur, One was the existing copy, another was discovered in a private collection and was hard to obtain, large filo front to back and 9 lines long. And the third was a compared version of both with corrections and heavy annotations. I’m guessing the DC folk are producing the one with the corrections and annotations and Commentary, hoping that will be the definitive version.
yes, ChNN rendered the versions he found and made "his contribution to dzogchen teachings" (so he commented). afaik translators are working in this :)
florin
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:18 pm
florin wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:14 pm
heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:14 pm

Actually there are samayas in Dzogchen. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Samaya

/magnus
Actually dzogchen transcends the 10 natures of tantra.
The nature of the mind does, but not the mind. It’s important to make a distinction between these two. When we see the ten principles of tantra being rejected in dzogcheb texts, they being rejected from the point of view of the basis, but not necessarily the path, which is why the Rigpa rangshar, the sgra thal gyur, and other tantras teach the necessity of empowerment, samaya, mandalas, and so on. The root tantra of dzogchen is not the kun byed rgyal po, but rather, the sgra thal gyur.
I was under the impression that the 17 tantras are a much later development than originally thought according to some more recent scholarship.
If i recall correctly even you yourself at one point expressed doubts with regards to their supposed origins.
Malcolm
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:18 pm
florin wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:14 pm

Actually dzogchen transcends the 10 natures of tantra.
The nature of the mind does, but not the mind. It’s important to make a distinction between these two. When we see the ten principles of tantra being rejected in dzogcheb texts, they being rejected from the point of view of the basis, but not necessarily the path, which is why the Rigpa rangshar, the sgra thal gyur, and other tantras teach the necessity of empowerment, samaya, mandalas, and so on. The root tantra of dzogchen is not the kun byed rgyal po, but rather, the sgra thal gyur.
I was under the impression that the 17 tantras are a much later development than originally thought according to some more recent scholarship.
If i recall correctly even you yourself at one point expressed doubts with regards to their supposed origins.
Our teacher considered the sgra thal gyur to be the most important of these tantras. I dont’t pay much heed to opinions of western scholars, they warp people’s views of our tradition, and the Jaxes of the world follow them, misleading themselves and taking others with them.
florin
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:52 pm
florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:18 pm

The nature of the mind does, but not the mind. It’s important to make a distinction between these two. When we see the ten principles of tantra being rejected in dzogcheb texts, they being rejected from the point of view of the basis, but not necessarily the path, which is why the Rigpa rangshar, the sgra thal gyur, and other tantras teach the necessity of empowerment, samaya, mandalas, and so on. The root tantra of dzogchen is not the kun byed rgyal po, but rather, the sgra thal gyur.
I was under the impression that the 17 tantras are a much later development than originally thought according to some more recent scholarship.
If i recall correctly even you yourself at one point expressed doubts with regards to their supposed origins.
Our teacher considered the sgra thal gyur to be the most important of these tantras. I dont’t pay much heed to opinions of western scholars, they warp people’s views of our tradition, and the Jaxes of the world follow them, misleading themselves and taking others with them.
Right.
Then in the future, whenever you feel the need to interject, dont forget to remind us not to pay too much attention to your opinion. :shrug:
Crazywisdom
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:18 pm
florin wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:14 pm
heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:14 pm

Actually there are samayas in Dzogchen. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Samaya

/magnus
Actually dzogchen transcends the 10 natures of tantra.
The nature of the mind does, but not the mind. It’s important to make a distinction between these two. When we see the ten principles of tantra being rejected in dzogcheb texts, they being rejected from the point of view of the basis, but not necessarily the path, which is why the Rigpa rangshar, the sgra thal gyur, and other tantras teach the necessity of empowerment, samaya, mandalas, and so on. The root tantra of dzogchen is not the kun byed rgyal po, but rather, the sgra thal gyur.
So then the path is Mahayoga. It gets all so intertwined. But the path is Dzogchen, base, path and fruit and inseparable.
Malcolm
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:52 pm
florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:29 pm

I was under the impression that the 17 tantras are a much later development than originally thought according to some more recent scholarship.
If i recall correctly even you yourself at one point expressed doubts with regards to their supposed origins.
Our teacher considered the sgra thal gyur to be the most important of these tantras. I dont’t pay much heed to opinions of western scholars, they warp people’s views of our tradition, and the Jaxes of the world follow them, misleading themselves and taking others with them.
Right.
Then in the future, whenever you feel the need to interject, dont forget to remind us not to pay too much attention to your opinion. :shrug:
This is unnecessarily antagonistic. I understand that you believe the kun byed rgyal po to be the be-all and end-all of Dzogchen, and that's fine; but my opinions are not derived from some theory of my own making. I base myself on my gurus and the authoritative texts of our tradition. Vimalamitra states in Buddhahood in This Life (pg. 128):
If it is asked from which tantra those empowerments with their samaya originate, the Self-Originated Perfection Tantra, Mind Mirror of Vajrasattva Tantra, Powerful Lion Tantra, and Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra state [the empowerments with samayas] exist to be conferred. [52b] The Inlaid Jewels Tantra and so on state both positions: the empowerments with samayas exist and do not exist to be conferred. Though it is claimed that the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra, String of Pearls Tantra, and Heap of Jewels Tantra show that the empowerments with samayas do not exist to be conferred, all four are shown in the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra. Nevertheless, the very unelaborate empowerment that illustrates the symbol of the mind is therefore primarily explained. Further, the result of buddhahood arises without impediment from the conjunction of a qualified guru, a disciple who possesses samaya, and the blessings of the empowerment. For example, like grain ripening after a seed is planted in fertile soil, well-tended with water, and so on, the result ripens based on not damaging samaya after the empowerment has been conferred upon one’s pure continuum. It is not enough to leave grain such as barley and so on in their ripened state; they must be harvested. Like grain being suitable to eat after it has been harvested, the crop milled, and so on, having ripened that result of the mind, it is also necessary for the guru to correctly teach the instructions. If it is asked what the purpose is of ripening and liberation, just as ripened grain will be of no benefit if it is not harvested, even if one’s continuum is completely ripened through purification, it is wasted if one does not practice the liberating intimate instructions of the guru. That demonstrates the four empowerments that ripen the practitioner, the special support along with samaya.
Longchenpa points out in the Lama Yangthig: "Now then, although there is nothing to damage or transgress, the natural great perfection being beyond a boundary to protect, it is necessary for yogins on the path of practice to abide in commitments."
florin
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:51 pm
florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:52 pm

Our teacher considered the sgra thal gyur to be the most important of these tantras. I dont’t pay much heed to opinions of western scholars, they warp people’s views of our tradition, and the Jaxes of the world follow them, misleading themselves and taking others with them.
Right.
Then in the future, whenever you feel the need to interject, dont forget to remind us not to pay too much attention to your opinion. :shrug:
This is unnecessarily antagonistic. I understand that you believe the kun byed rgyal po to be the be-all and end-all of Dzogchen, and that's fine; but my opinions are not derived from some theory of my own making. I base myself on my gurus and the authoritative texts of our tradition. Vimalamitra states in Buddhahood in This Life (pg. 128):
If it is asked from which tantra those empowerments with their samaya originate, the Self-Originated Perfection Tantra, Mind Mirror of Vajrasattva Tantra, Powerful Lion Tantra, and Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra state [the empowerments with samayas] exist to be conferred. [52b] The Inlaid Jewels Tantra and so on state both positions: the empowerments with samayas exist and do not exist to be conferred. Though it is claimed that the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra, String of Pearls Tantra, and Heap of Jewels Tantra show that the empowerments with samayas do not exist to be conferred, all four are shown in the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra. Nevertheless, the very unelaborate empowerment that illustrates the symbol of the mind is therefore primarily explained. Further, the result of buddhahood arises without impediment from the conjunction of a qualified guru, a disciple who possesses samaya, and the blessings of the empowerment. For example, like grain ripening after a seed is planted in fertile soil, well-tended with water, and so on, the result ripens based on not damaging samaya after the empowerment has been conferred upon one’s pure continuum. It is not enough to leave grain such as barley and so on in their ripened state; they must be harvested. Like grain being suitable to eat after it has been harvested, the crop milled, and so on, having ripened that result of the mind, it is also necessary for the guru to correctly teach the instructions. If it is asked what the purpose is of ripening and liberation, just as ripened grain will be of no benefit if it is not harvested, even if one’s continuum is completely ripened through purification, it is wasted if one does not practice the liberating intimate instructions of the guru. That demonstrates the four empowerments that ripen the practitioner, the special support along with samaya.
Longchenpa points out in the Lama Yangthig: "Now then, although there is nothing to damage or transgress, the natural great perfection being beyond a boundary to protect, it is necessary for yogins on the path of practice to abide in commitments."
The samayas of dzogchen are implicit in the natural state and can never be broken. If they could be broken it would mean that the state could be damaged somehow and that would contradict at least one of the five special qualities of the state, that that the state doesn’t exist.
Another implication is that when a practitioner rests in the natural state one rests in the essence of everything. This includes samayas, whatever samayas you can think of.

And in my view when Longchenpa says to abide by commitments, given that he is addressing dzogchenpas, he appears to mean to rest in the state. Because by doing so everything is fulfilled.

And if you think he means tantric commitments and as a side note, do you think he followed the commitments when he disparaged yantra yoga practitioners and yogis who practice with channels and winds while attempting to introduce the winds into the central channel?
Pero
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Pero »

It's pretty simple. When I asked Him, Norbu Rinpoche told me years ago that if you're in your primordial state then there are no samayas but if you aren't there are.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
florin
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by florin »

Pero wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:48 pm It's pretty simple. When I asked Him, Norbu Rinpoche told me years ago that if you're in your primordial state then there are no samayas but if you aren't there are.
This discussion started with my statement about dzogchen transcending the ten natures of tantra. And “dzogchen” here means the primordial state. Primordial state fulfils all samayas.

Some questions arise though about whether there are samayas to uphold in the case where say, an individual coming from theravada is interested in dzogchen and participates in a word empowerment without ever receiving tantric initiations.
Will that person have any samaya to uphold when not in the natural state ?
Norwegian
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Norwegian »

florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:10 pm Some questions arise though about whether there are samayas to uphold in the case where say, an individual coming from theravada is interested in dzogchen and participates in a word empowerment without ever receiving tantric initiations.
Will that person have any samaya to uphold when not in the natural state ?
Of course.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu was very clear on this. Whether closed or open retreat, whether webcast or not, whenever there is direct introduction, there is always samaya. A few times that I can remember (which means from 2004 when I first received teachings from him, and until 2018), he did go into detail about this topic, and said that by receiving direct introduction, you also receive samaya - always - and that this meant the twenty-seven root samaya, the twenty-five branch samaya, and so on, just like Longchenpa outlined in his Lama Yangthig, just like Khenpo Ngakchung outlined in his Zintri, and so on.

It is not at all the case that by not receiving any Vajrayana whatsoever, and only Dzogchen, you somehow bypass samaya. So there's samaya in both Vajrayana and Dzogchen. Also, note that these samayas mentioned here, are the default samayas that a Dzogchen practitioner should uphold. You can and should read Ngari Panchen with Dudjom Rinpoche's commentary on this subject matter, along with Jigme Lingpa's text, and Kongtrul's text.

The four samayas of Dzogchen aren't really samayas per se as such, they are aspects of the natural state, which means that if you abide in the natural state, then of course these four aspects are present in full. If you do not abide in the natural state, they are not there, which then in a sense means you are continuously violating these four samaya. And that is why when you are not in the natural state, you must uphold the twenty-seven, the twenty-five, and so on. It's very straight forward.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
florin
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by florin »

Norwegian wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:31 pm
florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:10 pm Some questions arise though about whether there are samayas to uphold in the case where say, an individual coming from theravada is interested in dzogchen and participates in a word empowerment without ever receiving tantric initiations.
Will that person have any samaya to uphold when not in the natural state ?
Of course.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu was very clear on this. Whether closed or open retreat, whether webcast or not, whenever there is direct introduction, there is always samaya. A few times that I can remember (which means from 2004 when I first received teachings from him, and until 2018), he did go into detail about this topic, and said that by receiving direct introduction, you also receive samaya - always - and that this meant the twenty-seven root samaya, the twenty-five branch samaya, and so on, just like Longchenpa outlined in his Lama Yangthig, just like Khenpo Ngakchung outlined in his Zintri, and so on.

It is not at all the case that by not receiving any Vajrayana whatsoever, and only Dzogchen, you somehow bypass samaya. So there's samaya in both Vajrayana and Dzogchen. Also, note that these samayas mentioned here, are the default samayas that a Dzogchen practitioner should uphold. You can and should read Ngari Panchen with Dudjom Rinpoche's commentary on this subject matter, along with Jigme Lingpa's text, and Kongtrul's text.

The four samayas of Dzogchen aren't really samayas per se as such, they are aspects of the natural state, which means that if you abide in the natural state, then of course these four aspects are present in full. If you do not abide in the natural state, they are not there, which then in a sense means you are continuously violating these four samaya. And that is why when you are not in the natural state, you must uphold the twenty-seven, the twenty-five, and so on. It's very straight forward.
I'm sorry.
And no disrespect intended but if you look at the contents of some of those samayas it would be quite difficult to see how they apply to the case i suggested.
It would also be the case for people who only practised sutra in the tibetan tradition never participating in tantric initiations.
Malcolm
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:26 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:51 pm
florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:11 pm

Right.
Then in the future, whenever you feel the need to interject, dont forget to remind us not to pay too much attention to your opinion. :shrug:
This is unnecessarily antagonistic. I understand that you believe the kun byed rgyal po to be the be-all and end-all of Dzogchen, and that's fine; but my opinions are not derived from some theory of my own making. I base myself on my gurus and the authoritative texts of our tradition. Vimalamitra states in Buddhahood in This Life (pg. 128):
If it is asked from which tantra those empowerments with their samaya originate, the Self-Originated Perfection Tantra, Mind Mirror of Vajrasattva Tantra, Powerful Lion Tantra, and Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra state [the empowerments with samayas] exist to be conferred. [52b] The Inlaid Jewels Tantra and so on state both positions: the empowerments with samayas exist and do not exist to be conferred. Though it is claimed that the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra, String of Pearls Tantra, and Heap of Jewels Tantra show that the empowerments with samayas do not exist to be conferred, all four are shown in the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra. Nevertheless, the very unelaborate empowerment that illustrates the symbol of the mind is therefore primarily explained. Further, the result of buddhahood arises without impediment from the conjunction of a qualified guru, a disciple who possesses samaya, and the blessings of the empowerment. For example, like grain ripening after a seed is planted in fertile soil, well-tended with water, and so on, the result ripens based on not damaging samaya after the empowerment has been conferred upon one’s pure continuum. It is not enough to leave grain such as barley and so on in their ripened state; they must be harvested. Like grain being suitable to eat after it has been harvested, the crop milled, and so on, having ripened that result of the mind, it is also necessary for the guru to correctly teach the instructions. If it is asked what the purpose is of ripening and liberation, just as ripened grain will be of no benefit if it is not harvested, even if one’s continuum is completely ripened through purification, it is wasted if one does not practice the liberating intimate instructions of the guru. That demonstrates the four empowerments that ripen the practitioner, the special support along with samaya.
Longchenpa points out in the Lama Yangthig: "Now then, although there is nothing to damage or transgress, the natural great perfection being beyond a boundary to protect, it is necessary for yogins on the path of practice to abide in commitments."
The samayas of dzogchen are implicit in the natural state and can never be broken.
Those four samayas can never be broken because they relate to the basis (aka natural state), and not the path.
And in my view when Longchenpa says to abide by commitments, given that he is addressing dzogchenpas, he appears to mean to rest in the state. Because by doing so everything is fulfilled.
No, that is not what he is saying at all. He is following what the seventeen tantras says about samayas, not what florin says about samayas, because we are not always resting in the state of the basis. When we are not, which is most of the time, then we have something to observe and protect while we are on the path. This text by Longchenpa does not even discussion the four great samayas, it discusses only the 27 samayas of body, voice, and mind, to which all Dzogchen practitioners are subject. He says in the same text:
As such, protect these twenty seven commitments well, and moreover, the appropriate secrets, entrusted, and the accepted secrets must necessarily be guarded like one’s eyes.
Thus to boast that Dzogchen practitioners have no samayas to protect is very damaging both to the person making the claim, and the others that follow their mistaken guidance.
And if you think he means tantric commitments and as a side note, do you think he followed the commitments when he disparaged yantra yoga practitioners and yogis who practice with channels and winds while attempting to introduce the winds into the central channel?
Longchenpa never disparaged yantra, etc., he made fun of people who were obsessed with karmamudra practice, and stated it was for people with excess lust, who needed to get it out of their system before they were ready for serious practice.
Norwegian
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Re: Practicing dzogchen without tantric vows? Do i need them?

Post by Norwegian »

florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:54 pm
Norwegian wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:31 pm
florin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:10 pm Some questions arise though about whether there are samayas to uphold in the case where say, an individual coming from theravada is interested in dzogchen and participates in a word empowerment without ever receiving tantric initiations.
Will that person have any samaya to uphold when not in the natural state ?
Of course.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu was very clear on this. Whether closed or open retreat, whether webcast or not, whenever there is direct introduction, there is always samaya. A few times that I can remember (which means from 2004 when I first received teachings from him, and until 2018), he did go into detail about this topic, and said that by receiving direct introduction, you also receive samaya - always - and that this meant the twenty-seven root samaya, the twenty-five branch samaya, and so on, just like Longchenpa outlined in his Lama Yangthig, just like Khenpo Ngakchung outlined in his Zintri, and so on.

It is not at all the case that by not receiving any Vajrayana whatsoever, and only Dzogchen, you somehow bypass samaya. So there's samaya in both Vajrayana and Dzogchen. Also, note that these samayas mentioned here, are the default samayas that a Dzogchen practitioner should uphold. You can and should read Ngari Panchen with Dudjom Rinpoche's commentary on this subject matter, along with Jigme Lingpa's text, and Kongtrul's text.

The four samayas of Dzogchen aren't really samayas per se as such, they are aspects of the natural state, which means that if you abide in the natural state, then of course these four aspects are present in full. If you do not abide in the natural state, they are not there, which then in a sense means you are continuously violating these four samaya. And that is why when you are not in the natural state, you must uphold the twenty-seven, the twenty-five, and so on. It's very straight forward.
I'm sorry.
And no disrespect intended but if you look at the contents of some of those samayas it would be quite difficult to see how they apply to the case i suggested.
It would also be the case for people who only practised sutra in the tibetan tradition never participating in tantric initiations.
I see no problems whatsoever here. The direct introduction is an empowerment, and by receiving this empowerment, you also receive samaya.

You can review teachings on this by ChNN, you can read Longchenpa, Ngari Panchen, Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigme Lingpa, Kongtrul, Khenpo Ngakchung, and literally any other Dzogchen teacher as well as the Dzogchen tantras themselves. And here, one needs to understand that the most important tantras of Dzogchen, belongs to the Innermost Unexcelled Secret Cycle of the Menngagde. These are the 17 Tantras, and the Dra Thal Gyur Tantra is the actual root tantra of the 17.

This tantra ChNN gave the transmission of, something he did because a.) It's an incredibly important tantra, and b.) It was announced to be translated by the three primary translators of the Dzogchen Community, along with its commentary by Vimalamitra. Also Malcolm will translate this tantra and its commentary, since he is working on the 17 Tantras as a translation project, in collaboration with Wisdom Publishing.

ChNN in general never mentioned the samaya in a detailed manner, one after another, he instead condensed their essential meaning into a few easy to remember points, which means that by being engaged in the advice he gave means you will also uphold those samaya.

The idea however, that in Dzogchen there are only four samaya, is not only erroneous, it's also ridiculous. This kind of thinking is a deviation (gol sa) of the highest order, and it only leads to trouble.
Last edited by Norwegian on Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
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