Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by DGA »

Anyone know if the Song of Vajra lungta (prayer flags) are available somewhere?
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:26 am
Aryjna wrote: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:50 pm Does it help to receive an empowerment for a deity if it is from a different terma/lineage to the DC practice you want to do? Or does it make no real difference to the practice? I don't think I have seen this mentioned anywhere.
I have teachers in, and a bunch of initiations in the Sakya Lineage prior to starting to follow Rinpoche. I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't leave that stuff behind, I still maintain that connection, maintain what few commitments I made, and will always go see HHST and other prominent teachers if they are coming somewhere near and it's possible, IMO it would be kind of crazy not to. So basically, the reason to do initiations is IMO connection to teachers and lineages. I think if you went to an HYT empowerment that had serious commitments, it might interfere with Dzogchen practice, but if you have a real connection with a teacher etc., I don't think it really matters whether or not it's "officially" connected to your DC practice, it will be done from that view regardless....you don't need to mix and match, it's all precious as is... YMMV.
I agree, I meant specifically for a deity/practice in DC that one wants to practice, but has not received a specific empowerment for from ChNNR, other than DI and the lung.
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

mechashivaz wrote: Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:55 pm
Aryjna wrote: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:50 pm Does it help to receive an empowerment for a deity if it is from a different terma/lineage to the DC practice you want to do? Or does it make no real difference to the practice? I don't think I have seen this mentioned anywhere.
What do you mean "help"? If you have the right tool in front of you why get up to get a different tool that accomplishes the same thing?
It is not as simple as having the exact right tool with only the lung. Otherwise, why does ChNNR also give empowerments for these practices?
User avatar
mechashivaz
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by mechashivaz »

Aryjna wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:28 am
mechashivaz wrote: Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:55 pm
Aryjna wrote: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:50 pm Does it help to receive an empowerment for a deity if it is from a different terma/lineage to the DC practice you want to do? Or does it make no real difference to the practice? I don't think I have seen this mentioned anywhere.
What do you mean "help"? If you have the right tool in front of you why get up to get a different tool that accomplishes the same thing?
It is not as simple as having the exact right tool with only the lung. Otherwise, why does ChNNR also give empowerments for these practices?
Maybe you're confused? With "only" the rlung? Rinpoche gives rlung because that fully empowers you to practice, he does not give tantra style empowerment (not that I've ever seen). If you have rlung to practice there is nothing more to do but practice...
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

mechashivaz wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:25 am
Aryjna wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:28 am
mechashivaz wrote: Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:55 pm

What do you mean "help"? If you have the right tool in front of you why get up to get a different tool that accomplishes the same thing?
It is not as simple as having the exact right tool with only the lung. Otherwise, why does ChNNR also give empowerments for these practices?
Maybe you're confused? With "only" the rlung? Rinpoche gives rlung because that fully empowers you to practice, he does not give tantra style empowerment (not that I've ever seen). If you have rlung to practice there is nothing more to do but practice...
I am not confused, and he gives empowerments. He gave one in February. Obviously one can do the practice with DI and the lung, my question was if there is an additional benefit in getting an empowerment of the same deity from maybe a slightly different practice.
User avatar
mechashivaz
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by mechashivaz »

Aryjna wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:27 am
mechashivaz wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:25 am
Aryjna wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:28 am

It is not as simple as having the exact right tool with only the lung. Otherwise, why does ChNNR also give empowerments for these practices?
Maybe you're confused? With "only" the rlung? Rinpoche gives rlung because that fully empowers you to practice, he does not give tantra style empowerment (not that I've ever seen). If you have rlung to practice there is nothing more to do but practice...
I am not confused, and he gives empowerments. He gave one in February. Obviously one can do the practice with DI and the lung, my question was if there is an additional benefit in getting an empowerment of the same deity from maybe a slightly different practice.
Yes, he gave wang, rlung, and tri for Mandarava tsa lungs but his method wasn't the typical elaborate tantra one is my point, which I mistakenly thought you were referring to. I don't see how getting the empowerment of the same deity from a different lineage will help, they'll be two different sadhanas. How do you figure you'll benefit in one sadhana by receiving empowerment for a different sadhana? I'm under the impression one should only take the empowerment if one intends to do that sadhana. I don't understand your issue totally, if you have the rlung and know the practice, wouldn't you just practice? Do you think rinpoche's rlung isn't sufficient for you to bear fruit of the practice?
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

mechashivaz wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:43 pm
Aryjna wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:27 am
mechashivaz wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:25 am

Maybe you're confused? With "only" the rlung? Rinpoche gives rlung because that fully empowers you to practice, he does not give tantra style empowerment (not that I've ever seen). If you have rlung to practice there is nothing more to do but practice...
I am not confused, and he gives empowerments. He gave one in February. Obviously one can do the practice with DI and the lung, my question was if there is an additional benefit in getting an empowerment of the same deity from maybe a slightly different practice.
Yes, he gave wang, rlung, and tri for Mandarava tsa lungs but his method wasn't the typical elaborate tantra one is my point, which I mistakenly thought you were referring to. I don't see how getting the empowerment of the same deity from a different lineage will help, they'll be two different sadhanas. How do you figure you'll benefit in one sadhana by receiving empowerment for a different sadhana? I'm under the impression one should only take the empowerment if one intends to do that sadhana. I don't understand your issue totally, if you have the rlung and know the practice, wouldn't you just practice? Do you think rinpoche's rlung isn't sufficient for you to bear fruit of the practice?
I don't have an issue, it is a question, but for some reason you seem to think that I have an issue. There is reason to ask this question, if there was no reason, then ChNNR would never give empowerments since he gives the lungs. But he gives empowerments, why? Obviously there is something to gain by receiving them. As for whether an empowerment for the same deity from a different terma or practice is relevant, that is the point of my question. It is the same deity after all.

I am interested in an answer based on a direct quote from ChNNR or another qualified master or authoritative text.
amanitamusc
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc »

Aryjna wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:57 pm
mechashivaz wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:43 pm
Aryjna wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:27 am

I am not confused, and he gives empowerments. He gave one in February. Obviously one can do the practice with DI and the lung, my question was if there is an additional benefit in getting an empowerment of the same deity from maybe a slightly different practice.
Yes, he gave wang, rlung, and tri for Mandarava tsa lungs but his method wasn't the typical elaborate tantra one is my point, which I mistakenly thought you were referring to. I don't see how getting the empowerment of the same deity from a different lineage will help, they'll be two different sadhanas. How do you figure you'll benefit in one sadhana by receiving empowerment for a different sadhana? I'm under the impression one should only take the empowerment if one intends to do that sadhana. I don't understand your issue totally, if you have the rlung and know the practice, wouldn't you just practice? Do you think rinpoche's rlung isn't sufficient for you to bear fruit of the practice?
I don't have an issue, it is a question, but for some reason you seem to think that I have an issue. There is reason to ask this question, if there was no reason, then ChNNR would never give empowerments since he gives the lungs. But he gives empowerments, why? Obviously there is something to gain by receiving them. As for whether an empowerment for the same deity from a different terma or practice is relevant, that is the point of my question. It is the same deity after all.

I am interested in an answer based on a direct quote from ChNNR or another qualified master or authoritative text.
Some of Rinpoche's students may request empowerments as did he when he met
his Root Lama.Was it necessary?No.In most cases it is not. Rinpochce rarely gives elaborate empowerments.
LolCat
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:50 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by LolCat »

Not sure if this is too in detail a question for a public forum(please let me know if so, I will edit it out), but when Rinpoche says visualizing the Trondu alone is enough when on a Tara retreat, does this include the seed syllable at the heart-center and/or the mantra rotating around it? I am not on a retreat right now, but I am trying to extend my practice sessions, and when I try to visualize everything I get too tense and lose awareness, which makes the practice feel pointless. If I visualize only the rays going out and coming in, I am far more relaxed, but I fear I am missing out on an essential component of the practice by leaving out the seed syllable.
User avatar
Spelare
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:38 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Spelare »

LolCat wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:03 am Not sure if this is too in detail a question for a public forum(please let me know if so, I will edit it out), but when Rinpoche says visualizing the Trondu alone is enough when on a Tara retreat, does this include the seed syllable at the heart-center and/or the mantra rotating around it? I am not on a retreat right now, but I am trying to extend my practice sessions, and when I try to visualize everything I get too tense and lose awareness, which makes the practice feel pointless. If I visualize only the rays going out and coming in, I am far more relaxed, but I fear I am missing out on an essential component of the practice by leaving out the seed syllable.
Have you tried visualizing the seed syllable transliterated into the Latin alphabet rather than the original Tibetan script? Would that be easier to maintain along with the trondu?
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 5028
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

amanitamusc wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:42 pm
Aryjna wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:57 pm
mechashivaz wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:43 pm

Yes, he gave wang, rlung, and tri for Mandarava tsa lungs but his method wasn't the typical elaborate tantra one is my point, which I mistakenly thought you were referring to. I don't see how getting the empowerment of the same deity from a different lineage will help, they'll be two different sadhanas. How do you figure you'll benefit in one sadhana by receiving empowerment for a different sadhana? I'm under the impression one should only take the empowerment if one intends to do that sadhana. I don't understand your issue totally, if you have the rlung and know the practice, wouldn't you just practice? Do you think rinpoche's rlung isn't sufficient for you to bear fruit of the practice?
I don't have an issue, it is a question, but for some reason you seem to think that I have an issue. There is reason to ask this question, if there was no reason, then ChNNR would never give empowerments since he gives the lungs. But he gives empowerments, why? Obviously there is something to gain by receiving them. As for whether an empowerment for the same deity from a different terma or practice is relevant, that is the point of my question. It is the same deity after all.

I am interested in an answer based on a direct quote from ChNNR or another qualified master or authoritative text.
Some of Rinpoche's students may request empowerments as did he when he met
his Root Lama.Was it necessary?No.In most cases it is not. Rinpochce rarely gives elaborate empowerments.
You do realise that ChNNR received all the empowerments for Changchub Dorje's termas from Changchub Dorje's son. Empowerments are important in particular if you are ChNNR students since all the empowerments he gives are direct introduction. Direct introduction by itself is also the highest empowerment there is.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
User avatar
heart
Posts: 5028
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

LolCat wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:03 am Not sure if this is too in detail a question for a public forum(please let me know if so, I will edit it out), but when Rinpoche says visualizing the Trondu alone is enough when on a Tara retreat, does this include the seed syllable at the heart-center and/or the mantra rotating around it? I am not on a retreat right now, but I am trying to extend my practice sessions, and when I try to visualize everything I get too tense and lose awareness, which makes the practice feel pointless. If I visualize only the rays going out and coming in, I am far more relaxed, but I fear I am missing out on an essential component of the practice by leaving out the seed syllable.
When learning how to visualise you have to do it step by step. Imagine that is all there but don't try to fixate on the whole visualisation but let your mind sweep over the various parts of the visualisation in the same way you would use your eyes to take in a huge room with many beautiful objects in. Be very relaxed so that you can gain a vast luminous experience from the practice. Now and then you can, if you know how to, just rest in the natural state without trying to do anything at all. This is something very helpful. Visualisations can become pretty amazing when you know how to do them.


/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Location: Chile

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Rinpoche had his way to Rome for his visa, he is going to China these days.

Any news about?
Norwegian
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Norwegian »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:27 am Rinpoche had his way to Rome for his visa, he is going to China these days.

Any news about?
His travel to Italy from Tenerife went very well, and likewise his travel to Merigar went very well.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
LolCat
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:50 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by LolCat »

Spelare wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:09 am
LolCat wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:03 am Not sure if this is too in detail a question for a public forum(please let me know if so, I will edit it out), but when Rinpoche says visualizing the Trondu alone is enough when on a Tara retreat, does this include the seed syllable at the heart-center and/or the mantra rotating around it? I am not on a retreat right now, but I am trying to extend my practice sessions, and when I try to visualize everything I get too tense and lose awareness, which makes the practice feel pointless. If I visualize only the rays going out and coming in, I am far more relaxed, but I fear I am missing out on an essential component of the practice by leaving out the seed syllable.
Have you tried visualizing the seed syllable transliterated into the Latin alphabet rather than the original Tibetan script? Would that be easier to maintain along with the trondu?
Thank you, I have, it is easier but not by much. It is not difficult at the start, but as time goes on I become less relaxed, which makes visualizing more difficult, which makes me more tense and so on in a downward spiral.
heart wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:03 am
LolCat wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:03 am Not sure if this is too in detail a question for a public forum(please let me know if so, I will edit it out), but when Rinpoche says visualizing the Trondu alone is enough when on a Tara retreat, does this include the seed syllable at the heart-center and/or the mantra rotating around it? I am not on a retreat right now, but I am trying to extend my practice sessions, and when I try to visualize everything I get too tense and lose awareness, which makes the practice feel pointless. If I visualize only the rays going out and coming in, I am far more relaxed, but I fear I am missing out on an essential component of the practice by leaving out the seed syllable.
When learning how to visualise you have to do it step by step. Imagine that is all there but don't try to fixate on the whole visualisation but let your mind sweep over the various parts of the visualisation in the same way you would use your eyes to take in a huge room with many beautiful objects in. Be very relaxed so that you can gain a vast luminous experience from the practice. Now and then you can, if you know how to, just rest in the natural state without trying to do anything at all. This is something very helpful. Visualisations can become pretty amazing when you know how to do them.


/magnus
Thank you, this was very helpful. Resting helps, as I relax the visualization sort of comes back automatically sometimes, as if it already there and I just have to relax into it. I am still not completely there yet, but am able to practice for longer without it becoming too contrived. I think I can extend the sessions with more practice.
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2302
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:27 am Rinpoche had his way to Rome for his visa, he is going to China these days.

Any news about?
Really? Is he feeling better?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
amanitamusc
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc »

heart wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:53 am
amanitamusc wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:42 pm
Aryjna wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:57 pm

I don't have an issue, it is a question, but for some reason you seem to think that I have an issue. There is reason to ask this question, if there was no reason, then ChNNR would never give empowerments since he gives the lungs. But he gives empowerments, why? Obviously there is something to gain by receiving them. As for whether an empowerment for the same deity from a different terma or practice is relevant, that is the point of my question. It is the same deity after all.

I am interested in an answer based on a direct quote from ChNNR or another qualified master or authoritative text.
Some of Rinpoche's students may request empowerments as did he when he met
his Root Lama.Was it necessary?No.In most cases it is not. Rinpochce rarely gives elaborate empowerments.
You do realise that ChNNR received all the empowerments for Changchub Dorje's termas from Changchub Dorje's son. Empowerments are important in particular if you are ChNNR students since all the empowerments he gives are direct introduction. Direct introduction by itself is also the highest empowerment there is.

/magnus
Yes i do realise this.In my post take note of the word " elaborate" :thumbsup:
Are you sure all the empwerments rinpoche received from Changchub Dorje's son were "elaborate"?
My point is that Rinpoche does not usually give "long elaborate" empowerments.
Is this clear enough?
My answer to your statement " Direct introduction by itself is also the highest empowerment there is". No Shit! Very short and "unelaborate" empowerment.I never stated otherwise.
Oh and Ati Gura Yoga is the main practice.Lastly,the sun will be here when we wake up.
User avatar
Mantrik
Former staff member
Posts: 2210
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik »

amanitamusc wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:34 am
heart wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:53 am
amanitamusc wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:42 pm
Some of Rinpoche's students may request empowerments as did he when he met
his Root Lama.Was it necessary?No.In most cases it is not. Rinpochce rarely gives elaborate empowerments.
You do realise that ChNNR received all the empowerments for Changchub Dorje's termas from Changchub Dorje's son. Empowerments are important in particular if you are ChNNR students since all the empowerments he gives are direct introduction. Direct introduction by itself is also the highest empowerment there is.

/magnus
Yes i do realise this.In my post take note of the word " elaborate" :thumbsup:
Are you sure all the empwerments rinpoche received from Changchub Dorje's son were "elaborate"?
My point is that Rinpoche does not usually give "long elaborate" empowerments.
Is this clear enough?
My answer to your statement " Direct introduction by itself is also the highest empowerment there is". No Shit! Very short and "unelaborate" empowerment.I never stated otherwise.
Oh and Ati Gura Yoga is the main practice.Lastly,the sun will be here when we wake up.
DI and lung are supposed to be enough. (I believe that to be so from personal experience.)
However, I have heard that it is 'better' to receive a full empowerment from ChNN, and that it is 'even better' to receive it in person rather than via webcast.
This is a source of confusion and I haven't yet seen an explanation which does not immediately seem to contradict the first statement, that DI and lung via webcast is sufficient.

An empowerment from a different terma or lineage would be entirely separate, as I understand it, whether from ChNN or someone else, so not a help or hindrance. The only connection would be, if it were performed by ChNN as discussed, that empowerment would include DI.
As the Indians may say: 'Same........same...but different'. :)

Is there a thread or discussion elsewhere which clarifies the relative merits and validity of:
DI & lung via webcast
DI & lung in person
Full empowerment (wang, lung, tri) via webcast
Full empowerment in person
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:00 am DI and lung are supposed to be enough. (I believe that to be so from personal experience.)
However, I have heard that it is 'better' to receive a full empowerment from ChNN, and that it is 'even better' to receive it in person rather than via webcast.
This is a source of confusion and I haven't yet seen an explanation which does not immediately seem to contradict the first statement, that DI and lung via webcast is sufficient.

An empowerment from a different terma or lineage would be entirely separate, as I understand it, whether from ChNN or someone else, so not a help or hindrance. The only connection would be, if it were performed by ChNN as discussed, that empowerment would include DI.
As the Indians may say: 'Same........same...but different'. :)

Is there a thread or discussion elsewhere which clarifies the relative merits and validity of:
DI & lung via webcast
DI & lung in person
Full empowerment (wang, lung, tri) via webcast
Full empowerment in person
I think it is not that strange that it is considered better in person, simply as a stronger connection may be created, as in any other connection it may be stronger if you meet someone in person than if you talk a little over the internet, in the end it may not matter depending on capacity and diligence.

As for a different empowerment for the same deity being irrelevant, isn't that a bit strange, it is not like it is a completely different deity because it comes from a different terma. It is still the same attributes etc. It is something I have thought about before, so it would be good if there was some authoritative answer on the matter.
amanitamusc
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc »

I remember DI before the world wide transmission webcasts and you follow along on a VHS tape at the same time.It was great!
I don't think you need a measure for the different types Rinpoche has given the nod to for authenticity.
Unless you are a doubter.Then it wouldn't matter if you were sitting in his lap.But even then you
would have received transmission and the opportunity to practice.
A connection is a connection.
Of coarse it is great to meet Rinpoche in person but if you can't, CHNN set up these alternative methods because they work.
Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”