Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Mantrik
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:31 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:35 am
I remember DI before the world wide transmission webcasts and you follow along on a VHS tape at the same time.It was great!
I don't think you need a measure for the different types Rinpoche has given the nod to for authenticity.
Unless you are a doubter.Then it wouldn't matter if you were sitting in his lap.But even then you
would have received transmission and the opportunity to practice.
A connection is a connection.
Of coarse it is great to meet Rinpoche in person but if you can't, CHNN set up these alternative methods because they work.
I'm harking back to Aryjna's question. If DI & lung by webcast is perfect as it is, shared in 'time' but not in 'place', then what is added by the other elements of full empowerment and also by receiving something in person?
Comparing those methods happens whether we are aware of it or not. When you use words like 'but if you can't' it immediately does so. I agree with what you say, but I would be interested to know, like Aryjna, what the authoritative answer is.
The best reply would be a quote from ChNN himself, of course, or someone recalling what he taught about this. Anyone know?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:46 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:31 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:35 am
I remember DI before the world wide transmission webcasts and you follow along on a VHS tape at the same time.It was great!
I don't think you need a measure for the different types Rinpoche has given the nod to for authenticity.
Unless you are a doubter.Then it wouldn't matter if you were sitting in his lap.But even then you
would have received transmission and the opportunity to practice.
A connection is a connection.
Of coarse it is great to meet Rinpoche in person but if you can't, CHNN set up these alternative methods because they work.
I'm harking back to Aryjna's question. If DI & lung by webcast is perfect as it is, shared in 'time' but not in 'place', then what is added by the other elements of full empowerment and also by receiving something in person?
Comparing those methods happens whether we are aware of it or not. When you use words like 'but if you can't' it immediately does so. I agree with what you say, but I would be interested to know, like Aryjna, what the authoritative answer is.
The best reply would be a quote from ChNN himself, of course, or someone recalling what he taught about this. Anyone know?
I don't recall?
What is sad to me. The ones who may never have chance to get DI/transmission from CHNNR that want to.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:47 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:00 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:27 am
Rinpoche had his way to Rome for his visa, he is going to China these days.

Any news about?
Really? Is he feeling better?
so i was told, but our teacher is not the kind of person who gives up, so he might be still recovering. problems are the many exigences of traveling that makes less easy to heal kidneys, lungs, and so.

we can just be patient.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:51 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:46 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:31 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:35 am
I remember DI before the world wide transmission webcasts and you follow along on a VHS tape at the same time.It was great!
I don't think you need a measure for the different types Rinpoche has given the nod to for authenticity.
Unless you are a doubter.Then it wouldn't matter if you were sitting in his lap.But even then you
would have received transmission and the opportunity to practice.
A connection is a connection.
Of coarse it is great to meet Rinpoche in person but if you can't, CHNN set up these alternative methods because they work.
I'm harking back to Aryjna's question. If DI & lung by webcast is perfect as it is, shared in 'time' but not in 'place', then what is added by the other elements of full empowerment and also by receiving something in person?
Comparing those methods happens whether we are aware of it or not. When you use words like 'but if you can't' it immediately does so. I agree with what you say, but I would be interested to know, like Aryjna, what the authoritative answer is.
The best reply would be a quote from ChNN himself, of course, or someone recalling what he taught about this. Anyone know?
I don't recall?
What is sad to me. The ones who may never have chance to get DI/transmission from CHNNR that want to.
Let's hope the next WWT gives them that chance.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:01 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:51 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:46 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:31 pm


I'm harking back to Aryjna's question. If DI & lung by webcast is perfect as it is, shared in 'time' but not in 'place', then what is added by the other elements of full empowerment and also by receiving something in person?
Comparing those methods happens whether we are aware of it or not. When you use words like 'but if you can't' it immediately does so. I agree with what you say, but I would be interested to know, like Aryjna, what the authoritative answer is.
The best reply would be a quote from ChNN himself, of course, or someone recalling what he taught about this. Anyone know?
I don't recall?
What is sad to me. The ones who may never have chance to get DI/transmission from CHNNR that want to.
Let's hope the next WWT gives them that chance.
As he is traveling to China it seems likely that the WWT in November will take place.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:31 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:31 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:35 am
I remember DI before the world wide transmission webcasts and you follow along on a VHS tape at the same time.It was great!
I don't think you need a measure for the different types Rinpoche has given the nod to for authenticity.
Unless you are a doubter.Then it wouldn't matter if you were sitting in his lap.But even then you
would have received transmission and the opportunity to practice.
A connection is a connection.
Of coarse it is great to meet Rinpoche in person but if you can't, CHNN set up these alternative methods because they work.
I'm harking back to Aryjna's question. If DI & lung by webcast is perfect as it is, shared in 'time' but not in 'place', then what is added by the other elements of full empowerment and also by receiving something in person?
Comparing those methods happens whether we are aware of it or not. When you use words like 'but if you can't' it immediately does so. I agree with what you say, but I would be interested to know, like Aryjna, what the authoritative answer is.
The best reply would be a quote from ChNN himself, of course, or someone recalling what he taught about this. Anyone know?
+1

I have heard from a few people who were there that when ChNN was first giving the donwang of Jnanadakini (~2005), Khyentse Yeshe reported that the Boss had told him that the donwang is exactly the same (bells and whistles aside) as the more traditional Longsal Root Initiation; they are both equally valid, and if ChNN did not give the donwang previously it was because he had not received it himself yet. Still, since then Rinpoche has given the LRI at least twice, in 2010 and in 2014.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:30 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:34 am
heart wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:53 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:42 pm

Some of Rinpoche's students may request empowerments as did he when he met
his Root Lama.Was it necessary?No.In most cases it is not. Rinpochce rarely gives elaborate empowerments.
You do realise that ChNNR received all the empowerments for Changchub Dorje's termas from Changchub Dorje's son. Empowerments are important in particular if you are ChNNR students since all the empowerments he gives are direct introduction. Direct introduction by itself is also the highest empowerment there is.

/magnus
Yes i do realise this.In my post take note of the word " elaborate" :thumbsup:
Are you sure all the empwerments rinpoche received from Changchub Dorje's son were "elaborate"?
My point is that Rinpoche does not usually give "long elaborate" empowerments.
Is this clear enough?
My answer to your statement " Direct introduction by itself is also the highest empowerment there is". No Shit! Very short and "unelaborate" empowerment.I never stated otherwise.
Oh and Ati Gura Yoga is the main practice.Lastly,the sun will be here when we wake up.
Whatever, but Aryjna wasn't asking about "long elaborate" empowerments and I was just correcting your idea that empowerments (no matter if they are long or short) wasn't necessary.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Pero » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:52 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:18 am
I think it is not that strange that it is considered better in person, simply as a stronger connection may be created, as in any other connection it may be stronger if you meet someone in person than if you talk a little over the internet, in the end it may not matter depending on capacity and diligence.

As for a different empowerment for the same deity being irrelevant, isn't that a bit strange, it is not like it is a completely different deity because it comes from a different terma. It is still the same attributes etc. It is something I have thought about before, so it would be good if there was some authoritative answer on the matter.
Well for example I think Malcolm mentioned somewhere that if you get an empowerment into a mandala of one cycle, you can't do practices of another cycle even if it's the same diety, because it's a completely different mandala. However occasionally I see that when there are requirements for receiveing some teachings it may be something like "any empowerment of Guru Rinpoche".
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:31 pm
I have heard from a few people who were there that when ChNN was first giving the donwang of Jnanadakini (~2005), Khyentse Yeshe reported that the Boss had told him that the donwang is exactly the same (bells and whistles aside) as the more traditional Longsal Root Initiation; they are both equally valid, and if ChNN did not give the donwang previously it was because he had not received it himself yet. Still, since then Rinpoche has given the LRI at least twice, in 2010 and in 2014.
In essence yeah but it's not just "bells and whistles" that are different as far as I can recall.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:44 pm

Pero wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:52 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:18 am
I think it is not that strange that it is considered better in person, simply as a stronger connection may be created, as in any other connection it may be stronger if you meet someone in person than if you talk a little over the internet, in the end it may not matter depending on capacity and diligence.

As for a different empowerment for the same deity being irrelevant, isn't that a bit strange, it is not like it is a completely different deity because it comes from a different terma. It is still the same attributes etc. It is something I have thought about before, so it would be good if there was some authoritative answer on the matter.
Well for example I think Malcolm mentioned somewhere that if you get an empowerment into a mandala of one cycle, you can't do practices of another cycle even if it's the same diety, because it's a completely different mandala. However occasionally I see that when there are requirements for receiveing some teachings it may be something like "any empowerment of Guru Rinpoche".
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:31 pm
I have heard from a few people who were there that when ChNN was first giving the donwang of Jnanadakini (~2005), Khyentse Yeshe reported that the Boss had told him that the donwang is exactly the same (bells and whistles aside) as the more traditional Longsal Root Initiation; they are both equally valid, and if ChNN did not give the donwang previously it was because he had not received it himself yet. Still, since then Rinpoche has given the LRI at least twice, in 2010 and in 2014.
In essence yeah but it's not just "bells and whistles" that are different as far as I can recall.
Possibly (much to my dismay, I have not received the LRI, just the donwang) but functionally they are the same. Which begs the question why Rinpoche keeps giving both.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:01 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:44 pm
Pero wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:52 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:18 am
I think it is not that strange that it is considered better in person, simply as a stronger connection may be created, as in any other connection it may be stronger if you meet someone in person than if you talk a little over the internet, in the end it may not matter depending on capacity and diligence.

As for a different empowerment for the same deity being irrelevant, isn't that a bit strange, it is not like it is a completely different deity because it comes from a different terma. It is still the same attributes etc. It is something I have thought about before, so it would be good if there was some authoritative answer on the matter.
Well for example I think Malcolm mentioned somewhere that if you get an empowerment into a mandala of one cycle, you can't do practices of another cycle even if it's the same diety, because it's a completely different mandala. However occasionally I see that when there are requirements for receiveing some teachings it may be something like "any empowerment of Guru Rinpoche".
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:31 pm
I have heard from a few people who were there that when ChNN was first giving the donwang of Jnanadakini (~2005), Khyentse Yeshe reported that the Boss had told him that the donwang is exactly the same (bells and whistles aside) as the more traditional Longsal Root Initiation; they are both equally valid, and if ChNN did not give the donwang previously it was because he had not received it himself yet. Still, since then Rinpoche has given the LRI at least twice, in 2010 and in 2014.
In essence yeah but it's not just "bells and whistles" that are different as far as I can recall.
Possibly (much to my dismay, I have not received the LRI, just the donwang) but functionally they are the same. Which begs the question why Rinpoche keeps giving both.
Longer empowerments are for those with less faith.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:01 pm
Longer empowerments are for those with less faith.
I'm confident that DI & lungs are effective and sufficient.

Are you expressing a personal view or from ChNN himself?
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:25 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:30 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:34 am
heart wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:53 am


You do realise that ChNNR received all the empowerments for Changchub Dorje's termas from Changchub Dorje's son. Empowerments are important in particular if you are ChNNR students since all the empowerments he gives are direct introduction. Direct introduction by itself is also the highest empowerment there is.

/magnus
Yes i do realise this.In my post take note of the word " elaborate" :thumbsup:
Are you sure all the empwerments rinpoche received from Changchub Dorje's son were "elaborate"?
My point is that Rinpoche does not usually give "long elaborate" empowerments.
Is this clear enough?
My answer to your statement " Direct introduction by itself is also the highest empowerment there is". No Shit! Very short and "unelaborate" empowerment.I never stated otherwise.
Oh and Ati Gura Yoga is the main practice.Lastly,the sun will be here when we wake up.
Whatever, but Aryjna wasn't asking about "long elaborate" empowerments and I was just correcting your idea that empowerments (no matter if they are long or short) wasn't necessary.

/magnus
The misunderstanding is my fault.That was not my intention.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:54 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:15 pm

Are you expressing a personal view or from ChNN himself?
Both.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:54 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:15 pm

Are you expressing a personal view or from ChNN himself?
Both.
Thank you. That's very helpful.

How is 'faith' related to 'capacity', please ?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:53 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:54 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:15 pm

Are you expressing a personal view or from ChNN himself?
Both.
Thank you. That's very helpful.

How is 'faith' related to 'capacity', please ?
Addressing this and your previous question. When you take the empowerment, you have to show up, whether it is DI over the internet or a long full empowerment in person over 2 days, then you receive it just the same. Show up means you have to be open, you have to be attentive, you should understand a bit about what is going on (to whatever degree you can), you should know the significance, you should know that it is the most or one of the the most important moments in your entire life, you should have created a karmic link previously in the past life, you should receive it, and you should apply it to the best of your ability, with your own capacity and knowledge. Most importantly you should understand what class of teachings you have received and how they are applied, and you should apply them.

Kevin...
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:01 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:44 pm
Pero wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:52 pm


Well for example I think Malcolm mentioned somewhere that if you get an empowerment into a mandala of one cycle, you can't do practices of another cycle even if it's the same diety, because it's a completely different mandala. However occasionally I see that when there are requirements for receiveing some teachings it may be something like "any empowerment of Guru Rinpoche".


In essence yeah but it's not just "bells and whistles" that are different as far as I can recall.
Possibly (much to my dismay, I have not received the LRI, just the donwang) but functionally they are the same. Which begs the question why Rinpoche keeps giving both.
Longer empowerments are for those with less faith.
Thanks, Malcolm!
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:07 pm

Virgo wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:53 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:54 pm


Both.
Thank you. That's very helpful.

How is 'faith' related to 'capacity', please ?
Addressing this and your previous question. When you take the empowerment, you have to show up, whether it is DI over the internet or a long full empowerment in person over 2 days, then you receive it just the same. Show up means you have to be open, you have to be attentive, you should understand a bit about what is going on (to whatever degree you can), you should know the significance, you should know that it is the most or one of the the most important moments in your entire life, you should have created a karmic link previously in the past life, you should receive it, and you should apply it to the best of your ability, with your own capacity and knowledge. Most importantly you should understand what class of teachings you have received and how they are applied, and you should apply them.

Kevin...
Well, obviously one would hope people would approach their Guru that way. But accepting that, I was asking what differentiates them, as there must clearly be a difference or ChNN would not perform them all. Malcolm's explanation related to faith makes sense, as does the possibility that ChNN is helping those of differing capacities through the different methods.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:47 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:25 pm

The misunderstanding is my fault.That was not my intention.
It can happen to us all, so don't worry.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by LoveFromColorado » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:19 am

Hi all, I hope this is the right thread to pose this question.

As I have mentioned in a few posts, I am relatively new to the study of Dzogchen and have been trying to look into various teachers, etc. That said, I am very interested in participating in ChNN's next worldwide transmission to receive a direct introduction if possible. However, I am having a heck of a time nailing down information in this regard.

For example, I just tried to email secretary@tsegyalgar.org as per the TE website which requests an email if you plan to attend the next webcast. However, it kicked back to me as undeliverable. I now can't even find the page on the TE website that listed the email, and I find most of the community websites difficult to navigate and populated with outdated information.

Please note that this is not a criticism at all but simply reflects an ongoing struggle I have had plugging into this community. Nevertheless, I can recognize its value and am determined :)

All that said, would someone have any recommendations in terms of next steps for a person such as myself who has done some self-study (I've read The Crystal and the Way of Light among a few other writings by ChNN and even his book on Guruyoga after receiving permission) and who is interested in connecting in a deeper way? Would a membership be the next step? If so, should there be anything I should know? I read somewhere about a Welcome Pass membership and that ChNN recommends three years of introductory participation before trying to take courses, etc., but I'm honestly so turned around just trying to figure out where to start here that I feel like I don't know up from down. Likely my confusion is simply a result of the structure of the online resources in this regard but it could also just be me. I've been at this for a few months now and am still at square one in terms of how to get started.

Again, not a criticism - I'm just starting to feel like throwing up my hands here and figured it would be better to simply ask instead. I've circled around this question a few times but have not really had a direct answer so thought maybe I would try again - perhaps I have not been direct enough :)

Thank you!!

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Russell » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:04 pm

Assuming you are in Colorado, try the contacts listed on this page. http://dzogchencolorado.com/contact/

or these..
http://tsegyalgar.org/contactus/

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