Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:10 pm
heart wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:58 pm But there are a lot of people in the DC that been teaching for decades and "lung" is normally not something requiring that the person giving it is fully realised. There are also other masters that can give direct introduction. So it all comes down to the Longsal teachings.

If you have taken on a position of responsibility in the DC this question will fall on you and failure to do so will slowly kill the DC.

/magnus
RIght, and there already people out there giving lungs for things they received from ChNN. Just not in the context of the DC.

I imagine there probably are some instructors that feel they can give some things, and others that disagree. That comes back to the individual level though. If one day an instructor is confident enough to step forward and say I can give this lung some will follow and consider it valid, others won't and will consider it terrible.
Im afraid, if anyone steps out and starts to give lungs of ChNNR transmissions, the first who will be against is Yeshi. As I understood (and I can be possibly wrong) he states that Rinpoche didnt gave authorisation for this to ANYONE, nor DI. And though he dont want to have anything to do with DC anymore, nevertheles he will guard purity of Rinpoche´s transmission. So, in the case I understood correctly what I said above, the DC community will come to serve only for ppl who already have all transmissions, there will be no new members and slowly will dissapear, or transform and rise as sangha of some new lama.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

I find it quite hypocritical (not adressing anyone in particular) to demand for someone to "step up" but quiting the dc only after two or several years after Chnn passed away. Its suppoused to be a comunity and many, many activities are being held.

Anyway i understand the concerns and i understans that financial problems rush things more but two years is very, very little time
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:48 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:10 pm
heart wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:58 pm But there are a lot of people in the DC that been teaching for decades and "lung" is normally not something requiring that the person giving it is fully realised. There are also other masters that can give direct introduction. So it all comes down to the Longsal teachings.

If you have taken on a position of responsibility in the DC this question will fall on you and failure to do so will slowly kill the DC.

/magnus
RIght, and there already people out there giving lungs for things they received from ChNN. Just not in the context of the DC.

I imagine there probably are some instructors that feel they can give some things, and others that disagree. That comes back to the individual level though. If one day an instructor is confident enough to step forward and say I can give this lung some will follow and consider it valid, others won't and will consider it terrible.
Im afraid, if anyone steps out and starts to give lungs of ChNNR transmissions, the first who will be against is Yeshi. As I understood (and I can be possibly wrong) he states that Rinpoche didnt gave authorisation for this to ANYONE, nor DI. And though he dont want to have anything to do with DC anymore, nevertheles he will guard purity of Rinpoche´s transmission. So, in the case I understood correctly what I said above, the DC community will come to serve only for ppl who already have all transmissions, there will be no new members and slowly will dissapear, or transform and rise as sangha of some new lama.
Thats not what i have interpeted from what yeshi said at all. In fact quite the oposite, more like do as you please but who knows. I wasnt there
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:26 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:10 pm
heart wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:58 pm But there are a lot of people in the DC that been teaching for decades and "lung" is normally not something requiring that the person giving it is fully realised. There are also other masters that can give direct introduction. So it all comes down to the Longsal teachings.

If you have taken on a position of responsibility in the DC this question will fall on you and failure to do so will slowly kill the DC.

/magnus
RIght, and there already people out there giving lungs for things they received from ChNN. Just not in the context of the DC.

I imagine there probably are some instructors that feel they can give some things, and others that disagree. That comes back to the individual level though. If one day an instructor is confident enough to step forward and say I can give this lung some will follow and consider it valid, others won't and will consider it terrible.
I think you’re making my point that no choice is a choice. On this path, the DC will become progressively less relevant to its members.
Ok, perhaps that's the case from your perspective. I think we just see the situation differently which is fine.

From mine it's kind of the other way round. I don't want to sit and wait for other people to make choices, not making any of my own. I have and am making many choices regarding my own engagement with the community, the teachings and teachers in positive ways, and that's what I'd suggest we all do. I've also made the choice not to go any of the instructors and petition them to start giving lungs and DI. Not that I don't think they're capable, I don't know, I just have other people I connect with more on that sort of level. Others who feel stronger connections with a certain instructor(s) should probably do so.

I think you should also consider the idea that not many teachers just pop up and say I have high capacity, I'm realized, start following me. In fact it would be justified to be quite wary of someone who does so. Most seem to start teaching either because their own master instructs them to start teaching his/her own students, or they do so because people petition them enough that they can no longer say no. So I think if what you really want is a certain instructor to teach ask them, get others to ask them. Maybe at some point they won't be able to say no out of their compassion to benefit students.
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Fa Dao
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Fa Dao »

OR people could practice their asses off, and "Relax, be Present, do Guruyoga and Song of Vajra..that is all I ask" and eventually the problem will solve itself
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Fa Dao wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:59 pm OR people could practice their asses off, and "Relax, be Present, do Guruyoga and Song of Vajra..that is all I ask" and eventually the problem will solve itself
:twothumbsup:
Pero
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Pero »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:05 pm
heart wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:58 pmBut there are a lot of people in the DC that been teaching for decades and "lung" is normally not something requiring that the person giving it is fully realised. There are also other masters that can give direct introduction. So it all comes down to the Longsal teachings.

If you have taken on a position of responsibility in the DC this question will fall on you and failure to do so will slowly kill the DC.

/magnus
Well. The lung thing is interpreted differently by different people.

Regarding DI: it is more complicated. If one never received teachings from ChNN, but receives DI from, say, Mingyur Rinpoche, one becomes by default a student of Mingyur Rinpoche (and not of ChNN, of course). Why would one want to join the DC in such a situation? DC instructors will not be of great help if what one works with is Mingyur Rinpoche's transmission.

Unless, that is, there is a genuine cooperation between the DC and Mingyur Rinpoche, one in which the DC recognises Mingyur Rinpoche's transmission, teaching and approach, and Mingyur Rinpoche recognises ChNN's transmission, teaching and approach (even if the two are not merged).

Feasible (in theory, at least. I do not believe it will happen) but challenging.

And it is not just Longsal that is lost. SMS goes the way of the dodo as well.
Yeah, right now there is no reason for anyone to become a new member of the DC. At best they can learn some Yantra. Do not see benefit in "merging" with another Sangha, since no one will teach Rinpoche's teachings and for other teachings you can just go to another teacher.

Regarding lung. I have a completely different opinion on the matter. Sure, Rinpoche did not "authorise" anyone. But, I heard him say many times that you can give lung after you have accomplished the function of at least one mantra. To me that means he basically authorised everyone, if they accomplished a mantra. Then it follows that either no one else sees things in this way, no one accomplished a mantra or they have but for their own reasons (whether they don't want to put themselves in front or they lack confidence, too humble, don't want responsibility of having students etc.) will not do so. Perhaps it is also the case that it might be difficult to for person X to just come out and say "ok I'll give a bunch of lungs, who wants them?" or something. Because proper circumstances have to arise both on the side of a "teacher" and the student (since generally the student has to do the request).
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:51 pm I find it quite hypocritical (not adressing anyone in particular) to demand for someone to "step up" but quiting the dc only after two or several years after Chnn passed away. Its suppoused to be a comunity and many, many activities are being held.

Anyway i understand the concerns and i understans that financial problems rush things more but two years is very, very little time
Two years is not much time? How much longer will you or I live?

Or another way to look at it - organizations built around one person dissolve very quickly when that person dies. I haven’t looked closely at the finances or active membership of the DC. But each year that passes will erode them.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

We are still in the mourning period. it has an end point so we have no reason to argue much.

btw, It is of the most abnormal to get di and be around your root guru for a long time, even for a short time. so you are very very lucky guys. honor that and be patient.
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:55 pm . I've also made the choice not to go any of the instructors and petition them to start giving lungs and DI. Not that I don't think they're capable, I don't know, I just have other people I connect with more on that sort of level. Others who feel stronger connections with a certain instructor(s) should probably do so.
I did do that. As far as I know the only qualification to give a lung of a text is that you’ve properly received that lung yourself. So lots of people would be qualified. But they’re not willing.
I think you should also consider the idea that not many teachers just pop up and say I have high capacity, I'm realized, start following me.
Don’t need that personally. There are other teachers that can give empowerments, pointing out, etc. As I said above: in my view it’s about the survival of ChNNr’s termas. Other people will have other concerns, but that’s mine, because it’s the only part of the picture that can’t be replaced elsewhere.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:11 pmWe are still in the mourning period. it has an end point so we have no reason to argue much.
Not really.

The mourning period was initially supposed to be just one year ("It is traditional to mourn for three years in such cases, but we are asking you to maintain silence for one year." I wonder where exactly is the three year mourning practiced, btw, and how it is practiced.)

Anyway, we are not arguing. We are talking. The idea that things will sort themselves out is quite correct, in a way. Everything unravels itself of its own and on its own, with time. Hardly the desired outcome here, eh?
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
Russell
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Russell »

Guys, I understand it is a bit difficult as it seems unclear how the transmission will continue, those empowered to do so don't show any interest at the moment, but what I heard from the Namkhai family was lets wait at least 3 years, not just one year, before thinking about the long term future of the DC. In the meantime it has been clarified what existing students should do, Yeshe will give the essential transmission for newcomers and many instructors can clarify and teach certain practises. The gakyils will help make this clear after these meetings as far as I know.

That seems to be how Rinpoche has left things and I have no idea how things will go 3, 10, 20 years from now, but I am sure Rinpoche has done his best for the very long term, not just the next few years. There are probably much bigger problems that he was aware of that we are not even considering, like pandemics (!) and economic changes etc.
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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Russell wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:40 pm Guys, I understand it is a bit difficult as it seems unclear how the transmission will continue, those empowered to do so don't show any interest at the moment, but what I heard from the Namkhai family was lets wait at least 3 years, not just one year, before thinking about the long term future of the DC. In the meantime it has been clarified what existing students should do, Yeshe will give the essential transmission for newcomers and many instructors can clarify and teach certain practises. The gakyils will help make this clear after these meetings as far as I know.

That seems to be how Rinpoche has left things and I have no idea how things will go 3, 10, 20 years from now, but I am sure Rinpoche has done his best for the very long term, not just the next few years. There are probably much bigger problems that he was aware of that we are not even considering, like pandemics (!) and economic changes etc.
Point is, that Yeshi will not give anything...
Russell
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Russell »

This is not my understanding after speaking to my local gakyil and would be a reversal of what Yeshi has already offered.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:11 pm
Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:51 pm I find it quite hypocritical (not adressing anyone in particular) to demand for someone to "step up" but quiting the dc only after two or several years after Chnn passed away. Its suppoused to be a comunity and many, many activities are being held.

Anyway i understand the concerns and i understans that financial problems rush things more but two years is very, very little time
Two years is not much time? How much longer will you or I live?
The thing is that is not about you or I
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Russell wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:58 pm This is not my understanding after speaking to my local gakyil and would be a reversal of what Yeshi has already offered.
Local gakyils differ on that point, it appears.

Anyway, what Yeshi had agreed to do would not have helped, because his transmission had been intended solely for those who never received it from ChNN, and who would agree not to reveal what transpired during the event. That event, had it happened, would have effectively created a new, spin-off sangha.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:05 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:11 pm
Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:51 pm I find it quite hypocritical (not adressing anyone in particular) to demand for someone to "step up" but quiting the dc only after two or several years after Chnn passed away. Its suppoused to be a comunity and many, many activities are being held.

Anyway i understand the concerns and i understans that financial problems rush things more but two years is very, very little time
Two years is not much time? How much longer will you or I live?
The thing is that is not about you or I
I’m not sure what you mean by that. As has been said above:

First, the first practice in the common preliminaries is there for a reason. Death is certain, it’s time of arrival is not, so we should never wait to practice. That includes seeking out practices and teachers.

Second, waiting doesn’t just mean we are less likely to receive teachings, it means that ChNNr’s teachings are less likely to remain in the world.

Third, the longer the DC remains in a state of uncertainty about the future, the more likely it is that its members leave and it falls apart. This would be a terrible outcome for ChNNr’s legacy.

So who or what is it about, if it’s not about this?
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

What i meant is that one cannot force or rush things because you or I or whoever might die, there are thousands of students around the world. Two years is very very little time. Just think about all the time it took for the comunity to develop WITH rimpoche. Or think about how much it takes to train a young tulku in more traditional tibetan settings.

The comunity is active and one should support those activities and be helpfull in wichever way they can. At least by not panicking, by supporting each other and by following rimpoches teachings.

Acknowledging that very little time has passed its not contrary to having conversations and solving things. Ignoring all that is being done because we want something more now its selfish. We should show gratitude while at the same time collaborate and work together.

There have been lots of courses, collective practices done by the main gars. Here in the local gar we have activities every day. Books are being translated and published. Other teacher have been teaching through SSI. SMS teachers have been talking and meeting with each other. Prettending that everything will be solve in two years or in a few meetings is not realist and of panicking and being on each others back is what rimpoche spend most of his life telling us not to do.
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Ones perception of time is all relative. I would consider two years at this particular juncture to be a decent length of time, one in which no apparent progress has been made on these issues. To say that one is concerned in that context would not be panicking.

In any case, nobody benefits from us sitting around doing nothing. People expressing their concerns, as they are doing here, can only help to find a solution.

That said, since I consider two years in this context to be a not trivial length of time, I’m increasingly resigned to there being no solution. Who knows, in two years time from now there may be one. But I doubt it.
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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:11 pm
Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:05 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:11 pm

Two years is not much time? How much longer will you or I live?
The thing is that is not about you or I
I’m not sure what you mean by that. As has been said above:

First, the first practice in the common preliminaries is there for a reason. Death is certain, it’s time of arrival is not, so we should never wait to practice. That includes seeking out practices and teachers.

Second, waiting doesn’t just mean we are less likely to receive teachings, it means that ChNNr’s teachings are less likely to remain in the world.

Third, the longer the DC remains in a state of uncertainty about the future, the more likely it is that its members leave and it falls apart. This would be a terrible outcome for ChNNr’s legacy.

So who or what is it about, if it’s not about this?
As far as current members leaving, there are many events going on, and a lot of online groups, so things don't seem that bad in that regard, for the time being. As for the continuation of the termas, you are probably right, it doesn't look good at the moment.

I agree that it would be nice to have some clear explanations about what is happening. I don't understand why it is supposed to be a secret in the first place. Especially the latest emails seemed overly cryptic, without any explanation as to why they were cryptic either.
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