Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

The last email just said that there wasnt going to be an official statment but that everyone was free to share their own subjective impressions wich i find reasonable
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:23 pmI don't understand why it is supposed to be a secret in the first place. Especially the latest emails seemed overly cryptic, without any explanation as to why they were cryptic either.
http://cafeirreal.alicewhittenburg.com/ferry.htm
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:23 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:11 pm
Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:05 pm

The thing is that is not about you or I
I’m not sure what you mean by that. As has been said above:

First, the first practice in the common preliminaries is there for a reason. Death is certain, it’s time of arrival is not, so we should never wait to practice. That includes seeking out practices and teachers.

Second, waiting doesn’t just mean we are less likely to receive teachings, it means that ChNNr’s teachings are less likely to remain in the world.

Third, the longer the DC remains in a state of uncertainty about the future, the more likely it is that its members leave and it falls apart. This would be a terrible outcome for ChNNr’s legacy.

So who or what is it about, if it’s not about this?
As far as current members leaving, there are many events going on, and a lot of online groups, so things don't seem that bad in that regard, for the time being. As for the continuation of the termas, you are probably right, it doesn't look good at the moment.

I agree that it would be nice to have some clear explanations about what is happening. I don't understand why it is supposed to be a secret in the first place. Especially the latest emails seemed overly cryptic, without any explanation as to why they were cryptic either.
As the email mentioned, that was purely from Yeshi. He very very explicitly wanted absolutely no recordings made, and no official notes. The reason why the email from IDC seems vague is simply that they are respecting Yeshi's wish not to put together an official briefing, but the decision isn't coming from them.

There's no secrecy though. People are allowed to discuss what went on. You'd have to ask Yeshi why he doesn't want anything official, but personally I wouldn't recommend that. It clear there have already been too many expectations placed on him. It seems pretty much down to the fact he doesn't want anyone speaking for him though, and he knows very well if anyone does it will simply be the interpretation of that individual. As we can see from the comments above people who spoke to different local gakyils already came away with different ideas of what the main point was.
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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:30 pm
Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:23 pmI don't understand why it is supposed to be a secret in the first place. Especially the latest emails seemed overly cryptic, without any explanation as to why they were cryptic either.
http://cafeirreal.alicewhittenburg.com/ferry.htm
:D
Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:30 pm The last email just said that there wasnt going to be an official statment but that everyone was free to share their own subjective impressions wich i find reasonable
That does not really help. Instead of an announcement, each person should contact others, who should contact others, who should contact someone who happened to be in the meeting, and then give their own understanding of the explanation they heard? Doesn't seem like a very efficient or effective way to understand what actually happened.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:36 pmAs we can see from the comments above people who spoke to different local gakyils already came away with different ideas of what the main point was.
Which, actually, is hardly good, is it? The meeting was organised so that some issues are clarified. If it clarified them, then let the DC members know about it. If you do not make an official statement, you will have a dozen versions of what actually transpired, what it means for the future of the DC, etc. Instead of clarity, more confusion, at least for the common DC people -- because those in the inner circle know what is what, in the end.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:36 pm
Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:23 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:11 pm

I’m not sure what you mean by that. As has been said above:

First, the first practice in the common preliminaries is there for a reason. Death is certain, it’s time of arrival is not, so we should never wait to practice. That includes seeking out practices and teachers.

Second, waiting doesn’t just mean we are less likely to receive teachings, it means that ChNNr’s teachings are less likely to remain in the world.

Third, the longer the DC remains in a state of uncertainty about the future, the more likely it is that its members leave and it falls apart. This would be a terrible outcome for ChNNr’s legacy.

So who or what is it about, if it’s not about this?
As far as current members leaving, there are many events going on, and a lot of online groups, so things don't seem that bad in that regard, for the time being. As for the continuation of the termas, you are probably right, it doesn't look good at the moment.

I agree that it would be nice to have some clear explanations about what is happening. I don't understand why it is supposed to be a secret in the first place. Especially the latest emails seemed overly cryptic, without any explanation as to why they were cryptic either.
As the email mentioned, that was purely from Yeshi. He very very explicitly wanted absolutely no recordings made, and no official notes. The reason why the email from IDC seems vague is simply that they are respecting Yeshi's wish not to put together an official briefing, but the decision isn't coming from them.

There's no secrecy though. People are allowed to discuss what went on. You'd have to ask Yeshi why he doesn't want anything official, but personally I wouldn't recommend that. It clear there have already been too many expectations placed on him. It seems pretty much down to the fact he doesn't want anyone speaking for him though, and he knows very well if anyone does it will simply be the interpretation of that individual. As we can see from the comments above people who spoke to different local gakyils already came away with different ideas of what the main point was.
So, how do you understand what Yeshi said about his possible teacher "carriere", his relation to DC, ectr, please?
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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:36 pm You'd have to ask Yeshi why he doesn't want anything official, but personally I wouldn't recommend that. It clear there have already been too many expectations placed on him. It seems pretty much down to the fact he doesn't want anyone speaking for him though, and he knows very well if anyone does it will simply be the interpretation of that individual. As we can see from the comments above people who spoke to different local gakyils already came away with different ideas of what the main point was.
I agree, that is why I don't intend to ask anyone. And this could be easily resolved with a simple announcement. But if they don't want to for whatever reason, that's ok, it is not my decision.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:41 pm If it clarified them, then let the DC members know about it.
And go against Yeshi's wishes? There's nothing useful in that. The most likely result is no more communication between him and us, ever. Not to mention it's disrespectful. If you agree to meet someone on their terms, for something you want from them, at least respect their wishes.

Honestly, I know where you're coming from. It's not a desirable situation at all. People in the meeting already disagree. And among people not there even more distorted versions and rumours will start spreading. All I can suggest is, if it's important to you and you want to know the details try to talk directly to someone there. It was a huge group, not some small inner circle. So at least there are plenty of people who can give you their version.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

(Deleted it.)
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

I'm going to have to check out. I thought maybe I could contribute something useful, but I was probably wrong, for me this is turning into airing our dirty laundry in public. If we had a private DC forum that's one thing, but I don't think an open dharma board that has nothing to do with our community is the place for this.
Russell
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Russell »

This is why the meetings took place in the first place, people want more clarity so they bug the gakyils then the gakyils bug the IG which then bugs Yeshe, give it a little time to be announced, but it really doesn't sound like a big deal either way.

:heart: :meditate:
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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:35 pm I'm going to have to check out. I thought maybe I could contribute something useful, but I was probably wrong, for me this is turning into airing our dirty laundry in public. If we had a private DC forum that's one thing, but I don't think an open dharma board that has nothing to do with our community is the place for this.
I consider this thread to be regular International DC phorum where we all can discuss. I doubt some other ppl would like to read a thread which has almost 400 pages. And its not "dirty laundry", its just "issue" which is good to hear many opinions about, I think. Also, I believe many IG members are here so they can read also...
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:30 pm The last email just said that there wasnt going to be an official statment but that everyone was free to share their own subjective impressions wich i find reasonable
That is pretty insane, rumours will not be helpful for anyone.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
amanitamusc
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc »

heart wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:45 pm
Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:30 pm The last email just said that there wasnt going to be an official statment but that everyone was free to share their own subjective impressions wich i find reasonable
That is pretty insane, rumours will not be helpful for anyone.

/magnus
I agree but Yeshi had the two meetings and set the rules for not recording or taking notes.This can only lead to rumors and speculation or worse.Yeshi's relationship with his Dads teachings and the IDC has been mercurial and it seems this is still the case.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc »

IMO From the above article. This will keep Rinpoche's teachings alive.


We are now in a different situation and have to take full responsibility for ourselves. After Rinpoche passed away some people were upset or shocked and asked who would be his successor now. This idea is not good from the beginning. If we have a worldly business or organization, then we need a successor, someone to take care, otherwise this business fails. In Tibet it was like that and the monasteries needed successors otherwise the economy of the monasteries would go down. It is the same here for the Community and some people say that the membership is half of what it was last year and that many problems are arising. But we should think well about this. Is it the reason, the main point, why we have been following Dzogchen teaching? It is not. Dzogchen teaching means that each of us can be Rinpoche’s successor if we apply and realize his teaching, like sowing many seeds in a field as Rinpoche did for thousands of people in this world. Then it depends how the secondary causes are, the weather, the water and these kinds of things. Each of us is following his own path in his own way, but we are all travelling in the same direction.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

heart wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:45 pm
Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:30 pm The last email just said that there wasnt going to be an official statment but that everyone was free to share their own subjective impressions wich i find reasonable
That is pretty insane, rumours will not be helpful for anyone.

/magnus
True, but neither is two years of weird cryptic messages about "being calm and respectful", with virtually no relevant information or communication to the wider community.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
billy hudson
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by billy hudson »

"As for the commotion of so-called Dharma centers,
If useful, I establish them as foundations of the Teaching.
If not, I try to reduce attachment and aversion as much as possible.
You who enjoy Dharma centers, do as you please."

The Little Song of Do As You Please by Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, p17
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Actually I don't see any difference at all between running a Gar and running a monastery. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
amanitamusc
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc »

heart wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:43 am
Actually I don't see any difference at all between running a Gar and running a monastery. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away.

/magnus
What problem?
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