Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm
To equate not having a public forum with secrecy doesn't make sense, we are open and transparent
within its members, not to the public.

I think JD is not realising a lot of the problems he is experiencing and criticisms he has are coming from being active on a disconnected public forum and not active within the DC itself..
Dude, you can't really be "active" within the larger DC unless you live in near a gar or ling, or have in person experience with the community, that is kind of my point about the future. The only other thing is to follow the disorganized slew of info from Norbunet etc., the now somewhat random offering of things on the webcast site, ordering from SSI, etc. It was different when there were webcasts with Rinpoche, those drew disparate people together. If they are gone, the DC needs to plan accordingly and stop acting like everything will be ok.

The problem is not simply my own, it is the very problem that cause the membership to continually decline without transmission as the centerpiece. There is no avenue for distance participation in the DC the way there is in other organizations, other than what I already do - ordering material from SSI, following all the lists, etc. I have the app too. That's kind of nice.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Norwegian »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:15 pm
Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm
To equate not having a public forum with secrecy doesn't make sense, we are open and transparent
within its members, not to the public.

I think JD is not realising a lot of the problems he is experiencing and criticisms he has are coming from being active on a disconnected public forum and not active within the DC itself..
Dude, you can't really be "active" within the larger DC unless you live in near a gar or ling, or have in person experience with the community, that is kind of my point. The only other thing is to follow the disorganized slew of info from Norbunet etc., the now somewhat random offering of things on the webcast site, ordering from SSI, etc.

The problem is not simply my own, it is the very problem that cause the membership to continually decline without transmission as the centerpiece. There is no avenue for distance participation in the DC the way there is in other organizations, other than what I already do - ordering material from SSI, following all the lists, etc.
Since I may not know about these other organizations you refer to, could you outline the crucial differences of them and the Dzogchen Community as of today? What is it that they offer, that the Dzogchen Community is not offering (and obviously a crucial difference is that the main teacher of the Dzogchen Community manifested his passing - so let's leave out any kind of main teachers that are involved in those other organizations). I'm genuinely curious.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:15 pm
Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm
To equate not having a public forum with secrecy doesn't make sense, we are open and transparent
within its members, not to the public.

I think JD is not realising a lot of the problems he is experiencing and criticisms he has are coming from being active on a disconnected public forum and not active within the DC itself..
Dude, you can't really be "active" within the larger DC unless you live in near a gar or ling, or have in person experience with the community, that is kind of my point about the future. The only other thing is to follow the disorganized slew of info from Norbunet etc., the now somewhat random offering of things on the webcast site, ordering from SSI, etc. It was different when there were webcasts with Rinpoche, those drew disparate people together. If they are gone, the DC needs to plan accordingly and stop acting like everything will be ok.

The problem is not simply my own, it is the very problem that cause the membership to continually decline without transmission as the centerpiece. There is no avenue for distance participation in the DC the way there is in other organizations, other than what I already do - ordering material from SSI, following all the lists, etc. I have the app too. That's kind of nice.
Not really. There is an app with basically all the events going on around the world which you can follow if they are being transmitted. There are several facebook groups of different gars with news, an official news site, magazine, Ssi and its branches with all the different activieties. I mean what do you expect?

I have stepped on my local gar maybe three times in my life and i have never felt distanced from the community. One has to be active, not passive. One cannot expect to be spoonfed by the community
Last edited by Tata1 on Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:10 pm
heart wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:04 pm
Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm To equate not having a public forum with secrecy doesn't make sense, we are open and transparent
within its members, not to the public.
Right, and so why do Yeshe threaten to sue anyone that talks about what happened on a meeting with 500 people? That isn't very transparent in my eyes.

/magnus
Not talks about, but records the meeting without his consent to do so. As to why, I could only guess at what goes on in his mind, which isn't particularly useful.
It was very clearly stated that the participants where free to talk about what happened
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

I really dont see how Adriano's advice to actually apply rimpoches teachings instead of just listening is "condescending" or "putting the in the sand". And most important i dont see how it is seen as contrary to finding solutions for the IDC new situation. There has been a lot of work being done in the community and all its branches and to ignore that is not fair. Of course more has to be done but we cannot expect everything to be solved right away.

It seems that any activity or news that is not to forcefully put someone on a throne like some sort of direct introduction and lung vending machine, and gathering funds in the process, is being completely dismissed. And we all saw how that worked for other communities. How is that different than putting a kid on a throne and taking him on a tour and all those type of activies typical from tibet thay rimpoche criticized

Of course the continuation of the linage is at risk and of course things need to be done. But this is not possible to be solved from one day to the next, and it definitely cannot be solved by forcing Yeshi or some Sms instructor to teach if they are not confident or willing to do so. Even the karmapa could not force ChNN to teach. The funny thing is that if someone ended up as a leader they would be criticized the moment they do something slightly different than expected and quarrel with each other, as is already happening, which is far worse than lossing dc members, because after all first we are dzogchen practitioners with samaya and then members of an organization

Sms teachers are already teaching and if one has faith in them then they should follow their teachings and request more. We should support each other and not freak out the moment something or some meeting doesnt go the way we had hopped.

Conversations need to be held and are being held but its unrealistic to expect everything to be solved in such short time. And lets not forget we are also in the middle of a pandemic, which didnt allow yeshi yo give transmission
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Norwegian »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:47 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:15 pm
Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm
To equate not having a public forum with secrecy doesn't make sense, we are open and transparent
within its members, not to the public.

I think JD is not realising a lot of the problems he is experiencing and criticisms he has are coming from being active on a disconnected public forum and not active within the DC itself..
Dude, you can't really be "active" within the larger DC unless you live in near a gar or ling, or have in person experience with the community, that is kind of my point about the future. The only other thing is to follow the disorganized slew of info from Norbunet etc., the now somewhat random offering of things on the webcast site, ordering from SSI, etc. It was different when there were webcasts with Rinpoche, those drew disparate people together. If they are gone, the DC needs to plan accordingly and stop acting like everything will be ok.

The problem is not simply my own, it is the very problem that cause the membership to continually decline without transmission as the centerpiece. There is no avenue for distance participation in the DC the way there is in other organizations, other than what I already do - ordering material from SSI, following all the lists, etc. I have the app too. That's kind of nice.
Not really. There is an app with basically all the events going on around the world which you can follow if they are being transmitted. There are several facebook groups of different gars with news, an official news site, magazine, Ssi and its branches with all the different activieties. I mean what do you expect?

I have stepped on my local gar maybe three times in my life and i have never felt distanced from the community. One has to be active, not passive. One cannot expect to be spoonfed by the community
When I entered Dzamling Gar for retreat in late 2016, I felt like I was coming home. I had never been there before, but it felt like home - not the day after I arrived there - but the very first second I entered the grounds. I saw familiar faces, of fellow practitioners young and old, of friends, SMS instructors, Yantra Yoga instructors, Khaita dance instructors, Vajra Dance instructors, and so on. I met lots of people I had never met before or seen before. It was very easy to talk to people. People were relaxed, joyous, happy.

One of the reasons why I saw so many familiar faces, is because I recognized a number of them from having seen them in the crowd during webcast events, and from having seen them in The Mirror, or in other videos, or from Facebook in the many Dzogchen Community / SSI related groups that exists.

I lived in north Norway, not exactly a hotbed of intense Dharma activities (there's nothing where I lived.) Where I live now, I'd argue there's also nothing. Sure, a handful of Buddhists here, but nothing that even remotely interests me. So I have to be connected online.

I also have nothing to compare with, since what I have around me offline is, well, nothing (aside from when I've actually gone on retreats.) So then regarding the Dzogchen Community, I'm part of a number of Gar mailing lists, as well as Norbunet mailing list. And I'm on Facebook, where I also follow a number of groups and people. And I read The Mirror. And watch various videos on YouTube.

I'm not really sure if what the Dzogchen Community is doing right now is way too little in terms of activities, or just enough, or quite a lot, since I have no frame of reference. This is also why I asked Johnny Dangerous if he could give examples of other communities that does this better, according to him.

Personally I feel like there's something happening quite often these days. There's been online practice sessions of various kinds. There's been talks. There's been teachings. There's been intensive practice sessions. As one example, SSI's School of Tibetan Medicine has had many nice live-streamed talks recently, with featured guest of Dr. Phuntsog Wangmo, and with guests like Mingyur Rinpoche, Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche, Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche, etc.

Something like this I think is very nice.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:53 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:10 pm
heart wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:04 pm

Right, and so why do Yeshe threaten to sue anyone that talks about what happened on a meeting with 500 people? That isn't very transparent in my eyes.

/magnus
Not talks about, but records the meeting without his consent to do so. As to why, I could only guess at what goes on in his mind, which isn't particularly useful.
It was very clearly stated that the participants where free to talk about what happened
So talk!

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Russell »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:15 pm
Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm
To equate not having a public forum with secrecy doesn't make sense, we are open and transparent
within its members, not to the public.

I think JD is not realising a lot of the problems he is experiencing and criticisms he has are coming from being active on a disconnected public forum and not active within the DC itself..
Dude, you can't really be "active" within the larger DC unless you live in near a gar or ling, or have in person experience with the community, that is kind of my point about the future. The only other thing is to follow the disorganized slew of info from Norbunet etc., the now somewhat random offering of things on the webcast site, ordering from SSI, etc. It was different when there were webcasts with Rinpoche, those drew disparate people together. If they are gone, the DC needs to plan accordingly and stop acting like everything will be ok.

The problem is not simply my own, it is the very problem that cause the membership to continually decline without transmission as the centerpiece. There is no avenue for distance participation in the DC the way there is in other organizations, other than what I already do - ordering material from SSI, following all the lists, etc. I have the app too. That's kind of nice.
Duuuude, I have done endless webcasts not just with Rinpoche but post Rinpoche with Elio, Fabio, Nina. There are Zoom meetings all the time, especially recently, every day for months with Steven Landsberg for example. This was all on the app thingy afaik, and there is a Shedra online platform thingy in the making last I heard.

I also do the bookkeeping for SSI and served on the gakyil and did and do it all remotely via online, I didn't even travel once to meet other gakyil members, but instead had many 121 and group zoom meetings and emails. It is a bit difficult because people are synced to meeting in person rather than all by email or zoom, but this is all changing now, especially now after the pandemic.

So this is a possibility now opening up for the future, for you or anyone else reading this, if you are willing to initiate zoom calls with people and communicate well it can be done, without all the travelling but with its own unique difficulties, and you may need to insist a bit that you can do it all remotely.
Last edited by Russell on Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:17 pm Of course the continuation of the linage is at risk and of course things need to be done.
the fruit is always at hand for the lucky students.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Norwegian wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:21 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:15 pm
Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm
To equate not having a public forum with secrecy doesn't make sense, we are open and transparent
within its members, not to the public.

I think JD is not realising a lot of the problems he is experiencing and criticisms he has are coming from being active on a disconnected public forum and not active within the DC itself..
Dude, you can't really be "active" within the larger DC unless you live in near a gar or ling, or have in person experience with the community, that is kind of my point. The only other thing is to follow the disorganized slew of info from Norbunet etc., the now somewhat random offering of things on the webcast site, ordering from SSI, etc.

The problem is not simply my own, it is the very problem that cause the membership to continually decline without transmission as the centerpiece. There is no avenue for distance participation in the DC the way there is in other organizations, other than what I already do - ordering material from SSI, following all the lists, etc.
Since I may not know about these other organizations you refer to, could you outline the crucial differences of them and the Dzogchen Community as of today? What is it that they offer, that the Dzogchen Community is not offering (and obviously a crucial difference is that the main teacher of the Dzogchen Community manifested his passing - so let's leave out any kind of main teachers that are involved in those other organizations). I'm genuinely curious.

If you look at other organizations - let's take Tergar as an example- they have coherent courses in fundamental concepts, meditation etc. Many of the courses are independent of any transmission.

How exactly would someone begin working comprehensively with ChNN's teachings right now? They'd have to 1) hear about the DC, 2) have someone inform them that they should start with Precious Vase 3) hash out a bunch of arguments about whether or not they are even allowed to purchase Precious Vase and work with it's contents. I know there are some attempts to create a structure like this, but without a clear word on the future of the transmission, such attempts seem quixotic.

The DC seems to be going in so many different directions now, If I were a person interested in studying Rinpoches teachings, I would be utterly bewildered at where to begin.

This kind of thing has to change fundamentally if the DC wants to be an organization with practices independent of transmission and remain functional, say nothing of growing or flourishing. As of right now, it's hard to even find definitive answers to a question like this - a person who never had transmission from Rinpoche wanting to get into his teachings as our example.

You could make the argument that the Tergar example is unfair because they teachers are still living, but I think the example holds. Perhaps it's ok that involvement in the DC for a member unconnected to a local gar or ling is so "DIY", but if so, the larger organization is simply going to shrink dramatically with Rinpoche gone. That isn't a bad thing necessarily I suppose, but if not it should be accepted, rather than there being a bunch of messages about how we should all continue to support the DC, as if it's the same thing it was when Rinpoche was alive.

Sorry if that sounds harsh or uncaring, obviously I take the survival of the DC seriously, it just seems crazy to me the way things have been progressing.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:32 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:15 pm
Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm
To equate not having a public forum with secrecy doesn't make sense, we are open and transparent
within its members, not to the public.

I think JD is not realising a lot of the problems he is experiencing and criticisms he has are coming from being active on a disconnected public forum and not active within the DC itself..
Dude, you can't really be "active" within the larger DC unless you live in near a gar or ling, or have in person experience with the community, that is kind of my point about the future. The only other thing is to follow the disorganized slew of info from Norbunet etc., the now somewhat random offering of things on the webcast site, ordering from SSI, etc. It was different when there were webcasts with Rinpoche, those drew disparate people together. If they are gone, the DC needs to plan accordingly and stop acting like everything will be ok.

The problem is not simply my own, it is the very problem that cause the membership to continually decline without transmission as the centerpiece. There is no avenue for distance participation in the DC the way there is in other organizations, other than what I already do - ordering material from SSI, following all the lists, etc. I have the app too. That's kind of nice.
Duuuude, I have done endless webcasts not just with Rinpoche but post Rinpoche with Elio, Fabio, Nina. There are Zoom meetings all the time, especially recently, every day for months with Steven Landsberg for example. This was all on the app thingy afaik, and there is a Shedra online platform thingy in the making last I heard.

I also do the bookkeeping for SSI and served on the gakyil and did and do it all remotely via online, I didn't even travel once to meet other gakyil members, but instead had many 121 and group zoom meetings and emails. It is a bit difficult because people are synced to meeting in person rather than all by email or zoom, but this is all changing now, especially now after the pandemic.

So this is a possibility now opening up for the future, for you or anyone else reading this, if you are willing to initiate zoom calls with people and communicate well it can be done, without all the travelling but with its own unique difficulties, and you may need to insist a bit that you can do it all remotely.
Sure it can be done, but remote participation in DC stuff is more of a headache than it is with other programs, in my experience. The only thing that was ever particularly easy or seamless were the DI, and some of the webcast retreats. participation in anything else is essentially localized, in one way or another. I almost went for a recent class with Steve Landsberg by Zoom - you're right, that's great that it's available. I couldn't make it because of timing and that of course is no one's issue but my own. I also concede that the app is very cool and is a big step in the right direction.

And at any rate, all this is a bit of a distraction anyway. I can personally participate at the level I want to. People like me are something of an issue, but perhaps less of an issue than new DC members are, or simply people who want to be exposed to Rinpoches teachings without membership - something which should be a possibility, and certainly was before his passing. It still doesn't solve the larger issue of an organization which revolved around transmission from Rinpoche and now does not. Nor does it solve the issue that so many resources are in so many different places.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:02 pm If you look at other organizations - let's take Tergar as an example- they have coherent courses in fundamental concepts, meditation etc. Many of the courses are independent of any transmission.
This is a bit out of topic, but the tergar course seems to me to be extremely useful and complimentary to ChNNR's instructions.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:47 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:15 pm
Russell wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:02 pm
To equate not having a public forum with secrecy doesn't make sense, we are open and transparent
within its members, not to the public.

I think JD is not realising a lot of the problems he is experiencing and criticisms he has are coming from being active on a disconnected public forum and not active within the DC itself..
Dude, you can't really be "active" within the larger DC unless you live in near a gar or ling, or have in person experience with the community, that is kind of my point about the future. The only other thing is to follow the disorganized slew of info from Norbunet etc., the now somewhat random offering of things on the webcast site, ordering from SSI, etc. It was different when there were webcasts with Rinpoche, those drew disparate people together. If they are gone, the DC needs to plan accordingly and stop acting like everything will be ok.

The problem is not simply my own, it is the very problem that cause the membership to continually decline without transmission as the centerpiece. There is no avenue for distance participation in the DC the way there is in other organizations, other than what I already do - ordering material from SSI, following all the lists, etc. I have the app too. That's kind of nice.
Not really. There is an app with basically all the events going on around the world which you can follow if they are being transmitted. There are several facebook groups of different gars with news, an official news site, magazine, Ssi and its branches with all the different activieties. I mean what do you expect?

I have stepped on my local gar maybe three times in my life and i have never felt distanced from the community. One has to be active, not passive. One cannot expect to be spoonfed by the community
These problems are real and have directly to do with the future of the DC, particularly since it looks more and more likely that the days of transmission happening are over. So you can say I am just being negative, lazy, want to be spoonfed or whatever. What you think about my attitude here is pretty inconsequential to the larger issues. I predict that membership is going to continue to steadily drop unless issues like these are addressed.
I mean what do you expect?
Better organization from an organization. Especially one that can't rely on transmission as the central hub of participation anymore. like I said, just look at Tergar's site, compare the experience of a new person looking for online study compared to what they would get if they were interested in learning what ChNN taught. Just navigating the disparate resources alone...

Anyway I've said my piece and people can do what they want with it.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Norwegian »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:02 pm
Norwegian wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:21 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:15 pm

Dude, you can't really be "active" within the larger DC unless you live in near a gar or ling, or have in person experience with the community, that is kind of my point. The only other thing is to follow the disorganized slew of info from Norbunet etc., the now somewhat random offering of things on the webcast site, ordering from SSI, etc.

The problem is not simply my own, it is the very problem that cause the membership to continually decline without transmission as the centerpiece. There is no avenue for distance participation in the DC the way there is in other organizations, other than what I already do - ordering material from SSI, following all the lists, etc.
Since I may not know about these other organizations you refer to, could you outline the crucial differences of them and the Dzogchen Community as of today? What is it that they offer, that the Dzogchen Community is not offering (and obviously a crucial difference is that the main teacher of the Dzogchen Community manifested his passing - so let's leave out any kind of main teachers that are involved in those other organizations). I'm genuinely curious.

If you look at other organizations - let's take Tergar as an example- they have coherent courses in fundamental concepts, meditation etc. Many of the courses are independent of any transmission.

How exactly would someone begin working comprehensively with ChNN's teachings right now? They'd have to 1) hear about the DC, 2) have someone inform them that they should start with Precious Vase 3) hash out a bunch of arguments about whether or not they are even allowed to purchase Precious Vase and work with it's contents. I know there are some attempts to create a structure like this, but without a clear word on the future of the transmission, such attempts seem quixotic.

The DC seems to be going in so many different directions now, If I were a person interested in studying Rinpoches teachings, I would be utterly bewildered at where to begin.

This kind of thing has to change fundamentally if the DC wants to be an organization with practices independent of transmission and remain functional, say nothing of growing or flourishing. As of right now, it's hard to even find definitive answers to a question like this - a person who never had transmission from Rinpoche wanting to get into his teachings as our example.

You could make the argument that the Tergar example is unfair because they teachers are still living, but I think the example holds. Perhaps it's ok that involvement in the DC for a member unconnected to a local gar or ling is so "DIY", but if so, the larger organization is simply going to shrink dramatically with Rinpoche gone. That isn't a bad thing necessarily I suppose, but if not it should be accepted, rather than there being a bunch of messages about how we should all continue to support the DC, as if it's the same thing it was when Rinpoche was alive.

Sorry if that sounds harsh or uncaring, obviously I take the survival of the DC seriously, it just seems crazy to me the way things have been progressing.
Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it. As I said, I have minimal exposure with a number of other organizations, although I may know "about" them, it's just not the same, and so there are things I'm missing out on due to this.

For someone who is completely new, haven't received transmission from Rinpoche at all, well right now they're looking at a big wall - if they are interested in his teachings. And for those students who did receive transmission from Rinpoche, yet are also very new (needs direction and wants direction), I agree, it's also challenging and difficult for them.

These things needs to change. And must change.

It is crucial.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Perhaps with this we can discuss what really happened and what the situation actually is.
On Friday, August 14, an online meeting of the Gakyil and instructors of the International Dzogchen Community took place with Yeshi Namkhai, the son of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu. This was the second meeting, the first took place on August 9, attended by international gakyil and SMS instructors, and after that additional clarifications were required for a wider audience.

At the meeting, Yeshi Namkhai answered questions about the Dzogchen Community, transmission, etc. Here is a short summary of what we heard (all mistakes are on the narrator's conscience):

1) He helped the community for many years at the request of his father - until 2014, when he left the community. He no longer intends to have anything to do with it, other than tracking the correct use of the name Chögyal Namkhai Norbu.

2) He does not consider himself obligated to support the transmission of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu in line with the traditions of the community. Doesn't want to teach within the framework and context of the community.

3) He does not believe that he is the holder of the Longsal cycle and has the right to give Direct Introduction and lungs to community practices. He believes that no one is authorized to give Direct Introduction in the Chögyal Namkhai Norbu lineage.

4) In April 2020, he was going to give an explanation of the principles of Dzogchen (not Direct Introduction) in Merigar West to specially selected novices who wanted to study Rinpoche's teachings so that they could read literature for the community. But the event was canceled due to the epidemic, and Yeshi also found that the participants had little idea that they were going to study who Chögyal Namkhai Norbu was, etc.

5) He is not religious, not traditional, does not believe in reincarnation. Buddhist traditional lineages and methods of explanation do not interest him and he does not intend to support them. This is not his life, he is a Western man.

6) Regarding the history of the Dzogchen Community, The Blue Book was written personally by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu and he [Yeshi] considered it very important. While much of it is outdated, it is still the starting point for community issues.

7) He does not intend to make any official announcements for the community, since he does not consider himself bound by any obligations to it.

Yeshi Namkhai insisted that the meeting should not be recorded in any way, therefore, unfortunately, we cannot provide you with a recording, but can only summarize what we heard.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

heart wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:03 pm Perhaps with this we can discuss what really happened and what the situation actually is.
On Friday, August 14, an online meeting of the Gakyil and instructors of the International Dzogchen Community took place with Yeshi Namkhai, the son of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu. This was the second meeting, the first took place on August 9, attended by international gakyil and SMS instructors, and after that additional clarifications were required for a wider audience.

At the meeting, Yeshi Namkhai answered questions about the Dzogchen Community, transmission, etc. Here is a short summary of what we heard (all mistakes are on the narrator's conscience):

1) He helped the community for many years at the request of his father - until 2014, when he left the community. He no longer intends to have anything to do with it, other than tracking the correct use of the name Chögyal Namkhai Norbu.

2) He does not consider himself obligated to support the transmission of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu in line with the traditions of the community. Doesn't want to teach within the framework and context of the community.

3) He does not believe that he is the holder of the Longsal cycle and has the right to give Direct Introduction and lungs to community practices. He believes that no one is authorized to give Direct Introduction in the Chögyal Namkhai Norbu lineage.

4) In April 2020, he was going to give an explanation of the principles of Dzogchen (not Direct Introduction) in Merigar West to specially selected novices who wanted to study Rinpoche's teachings so that they could read literature for the community. But the event was canceled due to the epidemic, and Yeshi also found that the participants had little idea that they were going to study who Chögyal Namkhai Norbu was, etc.

5) He is not religious, not traditional, does not believe in reincarnation. Buddhist traditional lineages and methods of explanation do not interest him and he does not intend to support them. This is not his life, he is a Western man.

6) Regarding the history of the Dzogchen Community, The Blue Book was written personally by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu and he [Yeshi] considered it very important. While much of it is outdated, it is still the starting point for community issues.

7) He does not intend to make any official announcements for the community, since he does not consider himself bound by any obligations to it.

Yeshi Namkhai insisted that the meeting should not be recorded in any way, therefore, unfortunately, we cannot provide you with a recording, but can only summarize what we heard.
/magnus
Thanks. Though I know very little about him (by watching an old documentary on youtube years ago), and things mentioned by chance by other DC members, I always had the impression that he has no interest in dzogchen. Which is why it seems strange that some people keep wanting him to teach.
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Steven Landsberg had this to say about it:
Recent events have inspired me to think a little about the future of the dzogchen community. These remarks are totally personal and have nothing to do with my position on the IG. I have absolutely no authority and I have no wish for any authorization from anyone.
It is a time when we need a unifying message that can remind us of our single connection to the dzogchen teachings and to our master CHogyal Namkhai Norbu. We need to feel somehow that we have this common link and bond and not fall into the issue of who has the authority to do this or that. The fact that none of us have any authority is just another way to say we all have authority. We have our individual responsibility to our practise and if we consider that to be of utmost importance and actually seek to do it, experience it, and gain some level of confidence in it, the other questions will answer themselves.
We are all students of the same Rinpoche and as individuals we carry the seeds of his knowledge within us. If we consider Rinpoche as having boundless knowledge, then even if you were to

divide that amongst the number of individuals that we are, boundlessness divided by any number is equal to boundlessness. It means we all have infinite potential. That is not just an abstract concept and according to the teaching, that potentiality is presently lying within us. Its useful to remind ourselves of that not so that we can assume some authority or position, but so that we can connect to the teaching meaningfully. We should avoid minimizing our capacity, and instead, try to fulfill our responsibility to the community. We dont need to worry about things like, “ who will give transmission and authority to read this or that book, or go to the next level of SMS, or authorize us to be teachers or transmitters. There is no longer any authority for that and as there is no authority for that, my personal belief is that we should let go of these restrictions and limitations. Let us open up as a community, welcome new people to all the knowledge that we have buried in our bookstores without any kinds of restrictions. Let us allow people to move forward with their SMS studies as long as they have fulfilled the requirements of the previous level. We dont need examinations, diplomas, and authorizations. What we need is our own committment and personal responsibility, realize our inherent capacity, and take proper

ownership of the transmissions we have received. There is nobody there to give us that. And so the only way we to have to go forward is to deepen our knowledge through practise and study, enter the vault and take it oneself.
I know there are many opinions about everything and I am fully aware that we will never reach agreement in a community that is as large as ours. But that type of agreement is not really necessary and only leads to larger bureaucracy and the necessity of policing it.
Our community functioned all right as a top down hierarchy as long as we had Rinpoche. He was the final authority. But now we dont. The inevitable result of not having a captain in a hierarchical situation is decentralization. Individual gars and lings will have to take on more responsibility and have greater participation through their local membership. Each gar and ling will make their own decisions.They will run themselves without having to get permission to do this or that. If they want they can invite other teachers, not to take over or dilute Rinpoches instructions, but to inspire old and new students alike.

The same will be true of SMS teachers. They will not be carbon copies of each other at all and they will follow their own inspiration, experience, capacity, and confidence. We dont need bureaucratic guidelines which will get ignored anyhow.
These are my own thoughts and I have no expectation of any consensus.
all best wishes, Steven Landsberg
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

heart wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:30 pm Steven Landsberg had this to say about it:
Recent events have inspired me to think a little about the future of the dzogchen community. These remarks are totally personal and have nothing to do with my position on the IG. I have absolutely no authority and I have no wish for any authorization from anyone.
It is a time when we need a unifying message that can remind us of our single connection to the dzogchen teachings and to our master CHogyal Namkhai Norbu. We need to feel somehow that we have this common link and bond and not fall into the issue of who has the authority to do this or that. The fact that none of us have any authority is just another way to say we all have authority. We have our individual responsibility to our practise and if we consider that to be of utmost importance and actually seek to do it, experience it, and gain some level of confidence in it, the other questions will answer themselves.
We are all students of the same Rinpoche and as individuals we carry the seeds of his knowledge within us. If we consider Rinpoche as having boundless knowledge, then even if you were to

divide that amongst the number of individuals that we are, boundlessness divided by any number is equal to boundlessness. It means we all have infinite potential. That is not just an abstract concept and according to the teaching, that potentiality is presently lying within us. Its useful to remind ourselves of that not so that we can assume some authority or position, but so that we can connect to the teaching meaningfully. We should avoid minimizing our capacity, and instead, try to fulfill our responsibility to the community. We dont need to worry about things like, “ who will give transmission and authority to read this or that book, or go to the next level of SMS, or authorize us to be teachers or transmitters. There is no longer any authority for that and as there is no authority for that, my personal belief is that we should let go of these restrictions and limitations. Let us open up as a community, welcome new people to all the knowledge that we have buried in our bookstores without any kinds of restrictions. Let us allow people to move forward with their SMS studies as long as they have fulfilled the requirements of the previous level. We dont need examinations, diplomas, and authorizations. What we need is our own committment and personal responsibility, realize our inherent capacity, and take proper

ownership of the transmissions we have received. There is nobody there to give us that. And so the only way we to have to go forward is to deepen our knowledge through practise and study, enter the vault and take it oneself.
I know there are many opinions about everything and I am fully aware that we will never reach agreement in a community that is as large as ours. But that type of agreement is not really necessary and only leads to larger bureaucracy and the necessity of policing it.
Our community functioned all right as a top down hierarchy as long as we had Rinpoche. He was the final authority. But now we dont. The inevitable result of not having a captain in a hierarchical situation is decentralization. Individual gars and lings will have to take on more responsibility and have greater participation through their local membership. Each gar and ling will make their own decisions.They will run themselves without having to get permission to do this or that. If they want they can invite other teachers, not to take over or dilute Rinpoches instructions, but to inspire old and new students alike.

The same will be true of SMS teachers. They will not be carbon copies of each other at all and they will follow their own inspiration, experience, capacity, and confidence. We dont need bureaucratic guidelines which will get ignored anyhow.
These are my own thoughts and I have no expectation of any consensus.
all best wishes, Steven Landsberg
/magnus
Thanks for sharing both the note and this! :good: A very reasonable suggestion.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:36 pm
heart wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:30 pm Steven Landsberg had this to say about it:
Recent events have inspired me to think a little about the future of the dzogchen community. These remarks are totally personal and have nothing to do with my position on the IG. I have absolutely no authority and I have no wish for any authorization from anyone.
It is a time when we need a unifying message that can remind us of our single connection to the dzogchen teachings and to our master CHogyal Namkhai Norbu. We need to feel somehow that we have this common link and bond and not fall into the issue of who has the authority to do this or that. The fact that none of us have any authority is just another way to say we all have authority. We have our individual responsibility to our practise and if we consider that to be of utmost importance and actually seek to do it, experience it, and gain some level of confidence in it, the other questions will answer themselves.
We are all students of the same Rinpoche and as individuals we carry the seeds of his knowledge within us. If we consider Rinpoche as having boundless knowledge, then even if you were to

divide that amongst the number of individuals that we are, boundlessness divided by any number is equal to boundlessness. It means we all have infinite potential. That is not just an abstract concept and according to the teaching, that potentiality is presently lying within us. Its useful to remind ourselves of that not so that we can assume some authority or position, but so that we can connect to the teaching meaningfully. We should avoid minimizing our capacity, and instead, try to fulfill our responsibility to the community. We dont need to worry about things like, “ who will give transmission and authority to read this or that book, or go to the next level of SMS, or authorize us to be teachers or transmitters. There is no longer any authority for that and as there is no authority for that, my personal belief is that we should let go of these restrictions and limitations. Let us open up as a community, welcome new people to all the knowledge that we have buried in our bookstores without any kinds of restrictions. Let us allow people to move forward with their SMS studies as long as they have fulfilled the requirements of the previous level. We dont need examinations, diplomas, and authorizations. What we need is our own committment and personal responsibility, realize our inherent capacity, and take proper

ownership of the transmissions we have received. There is nobody there to give us that. And so the only way we to have to go forward is to deepen our knowledge through practise and study, enter the vault and take it oneself.
I know there are many opinions about everything and I am fully aware that we will never reach agreement in a community that is as large as ours. But that type of agreement is not really necessary and only leads to larger bureaucracy and the necessity of policing it.
Our community functioned all right as a top down hierarchy as long as we had Rinpoche. He was the final authority. But now we dont. The inevitable result of not having a captain in a hierarchical situation is decentralization. Individual gars and lings will have to take on more responsibility and have greater participation through their local membership. Each gar and ling will make their own decisions.They will run themselves without having to get permission to do this or that. If they want they can invite other teachers, not to take over or dilute Rinpoches instructions, but to inspire old and new students alike.

The same will be true of SMS teachers. They will not be carbon copies of each other at all and they will follow their own inspiration, experience, capacity, and confidence. We dont need bureaucratic guidelines which will get ignored anyhow.
These are my own thoughts and I have no expectation of any consensus.
all best wishes, Steven Landsberg
/magnus
Thanks for sharing both the note and this! :good: A very reasonable suggestion.
Yep, sanest thing I've read in a while.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Steve's message was to a particular mailing list?
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