Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Adamantine
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Adamantine »

heart wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:30 pm Steven Landsberg had this to say about it:
Recent events have inspired me to think a little about the future of the dzogchen community. These remarks are totally personal and have nothing to do with my position on the IG. I have absolutely no authority and I have no wish for any authorization from anyone.
It is a time when we need a unifying message that can remind us of our single connection to the dzogchen teachings and to our master CHogyal Namkhai Norbu. We need to feel somehow that we have this common link and bond and not fall into the issue of who has the authority to do this or that. The fact that none of us have any authority is just another way to say we all have authority. We have our individual responsibility to our practise and if we consider that to be of utmost importance and actually seek to do it, experience it, and gain some level of confidence in it, the other questions will answer themselves.
We are all students of the same Rinpoche and as individuals we carry the seeds of his knowledge within us. If we consider Rinpoche as having boundless knowledge, then even if you were to

divide that amongst the number of individuals that we are, boundlessness divided by any number is equal to boundlessness. It means we all have infinite potential. That is not just an abstract concept and according to the teaching, that potentiality is presently lying within us. Its useful to remind ourselves of that not so that we can assume some authority or position, but so that we can connect to the teaching meaningfully. We should avoid minimizing our capacity, and instead, try to fulfill our responsibility to the community. We dont need to worry about things like, “ who will give transmission and authority to read this or that book, or go to the next level of SMS, or authorize us to be teachers or transmitters. There is no longer any authority for that and as there is no authority for that, my personal belief is that we should let go of these restrictions and limitations. Let us open up as a community, welcome new people to all the knowledge that we have buried in our bookstores without any kinds of restrictions. Let us allow people to move forward with their SMS studies as long as they have fulfilled the requirements of the previous level. We dont need examinations, diplomas, and authorizations. What we need is our own committment and personal responsibility, realize our inherent capacity, and take proper

ownership of the transmissions we have received. There is nobody there to give us that. And so the only way we to have to go forward is to deepen our knowledge through practise and study, enter the vault and take it oneself.
I know there are many opinions about everything and I am fully aware that we will never reach agreement in a community that is as large as ours. But that type of agreement is not really necessary and only leads to larger bureaucracy and the necessity of policing it.
Our community functioned all right as a top down hierarchy as long as we had Rinpoche. He was the final authority. But now we dont. The inevitable result of not having a captain in a hierarchical situation is decentralization. Individual gars and lings will have to take on more responsibility and have greater participation through their local membership. Each gar and ling will make their own decisions.They will run themselves without having to get permission to do this or that. If they want they can invite other teachers, not to take over or dilute Rinpoches instructions, but to inspire old and new students alike.

The same will be true of SMS teachers. They will not be carbon copies of each other at all and they will follow their own inspiration, experience, capacity, and confidence. We dont need bureaucratic guidelines which will get ignored anyhow.
These are my own thoughts and I have no expectation of any consensus.
all best wishes, Steven Landsberg
/magnus
Good thoughts.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sādhaka »

heart wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:04 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:10 pm It seems that Khyentse Yeshe and Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s daughter are the only ones authorized to give complete transmission.
He says no one is authorised.

/magnus

I was referring to the post someone posted sometime time ago where ChNNR himself was quoted as having said that his son and daughter are fully authorized.

And he also said that no one should feel obligated to teach; and his son apparently is taking him up on not feeling obligated to teach.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Adamantine »

When Yeshi says no one is authorized to give DI he is contradicting
ChNN’s own written official statement on this. That clearly states
both his son and daughter are authorized to give everything if they want to. So they are both authorized. He is choosing not to give anything, yet he is authorized. He can’t change that. It’s written into history. And he can’t speak for his sister, though perhaps he is if she feels the same way... regardless either of them may have different feelings at some point in the future.

Re: rebirth, we have plenty of threads here going back some time regarding those such as Stephen Batchelor who profess “Buddhism Without Beliefs” including the belief in reincarnation.. and this has been decimated ad infinitum... there’s no point in practice if there’s no samsara / cyclic existence to liberate from.. no bardo or liberation in the bardo if there’s no 6 bardos, etc. So Dzogchen becomes unintelligible. How could one could deny these things and still have an intelligible Dzogchen? So I certainly wouldn’t be looking to Yeshi even if he decided to teach.. if this is truly his view.. maybe some Batchelor students would though!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Adamantine wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:31 pmWhen Yeshi says no one is authorized to give DI he is contradicting ChNN’s own written official statement on this. That clearly states both his son and daughter are authorized to give everything if they want to.
He disputes it. According to his reading, the letter states that he and Yuchen can "teach" whatever practices Rinpoche taught them. Yeshi argues that this in no way means he or Yuchen or anybody else is authorised to give DI, wangs or, yes, lungs.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Adamantine
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Adamantine »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:37 pm
Adamantine wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:31 pmWhen Yeshi says no one is authorized to give DI he is contradicting ChNN’s own written official statement on this. That clearly states both his son and daughter are authorized to give everything if they want to.
He disputes it. According to his reading, the letter states that he and Yuchen can "teach" whatever practices Rinpoche taught them. Yeshi argues that this in no way means he or Yuchen or anybody else is authorised to give DI, wangs or, yes, lungs.
Ah I see. Well sure one could interpret it either way. It doesn’t explicitly say either way. It also doesn’t say that no one can give DI, so if we read it narrowly then there’s still plenty of possibilities. ;)
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Adamantine wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:43 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:37 pm
Adamantine wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:31 pmWhen Yeshi says no one is authorized to give DI he is contradicting ChNN’s own written official statement on this. That clearly states both his son and daughter are authorized to give everything if they want to.
He disputes it. According to his reading, the letter states that he and Yuchen can "teach" whatever practices Rinpoche taught them. Yeshi argues that this in no way means he or Yuchen or anybody else is authorised to give DI, wangs or, yes, lungs.
Ah I see. Well sure one could interpret it either way. It doesn’t explicitly say either way. It also doesn’t say that no one can give DI, so if we read it narrowly then there’s still plenty of possibilities. ;)
The question is, why use Yeshi's reading to disambiguate the statement, if Yeshi claims he is not and will never be a DC member, is not really interested in continuing the transmission, is not and will never be a teacher, etc.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Man, what a bummer this whole situation is.

Obviously YN should not be considered a teacher, he doesn’t want to be and doesn’t want to be associated with the DC. It would be easier if he hadn’t also said he was concerned about the purity of his fathers name and that it was used correctly ...does that mean that he doesn’t want to be associated with the DC, but that if it goes in a direction that he doesn’t like (I mean ...even more of a direction ...that he doesn’t like, even more) that he’ll attempt to step back in?
That threat would certainly make things confusing.

I personally am good. I received teachings, more than enough practices to keep busy for a lifetime and am currently working with a living teacher who I have great faith in. I assume that is true for most here. I would love to receive the Longsal teachings (the vast majority of which I did not receive), but am not too worried if I don’t.

That being said, I think it would be heartbreaking if the Longsal teachings of ChNN, that he worked so hard to deliver and teach, just died out in this time and place. Even that would ultimately be okay, the dakinis still have them and can transmit them to someone else like they transmitted them to ChNN, but it would be very disappointing.

As just a normal, maybe slightly less than normal, practitioner who hasn’t even received the Longsal wang I obviously won’t be trying to set up as teacher, so I’m just keeping my fingers crossed that someone will step up.
There are fully qualified lamas, who give the four empowerments, who have also received the Longsal teachings; it seems like they should be qualified to teach it and give DI. I hope they do.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Adamantine »

Considering ChNN’s own experience with his gurus, the origins of the Longsal, and his activity in the dreams of his students, let’s not write off the possibility that he may clarify things within dreams at appropriate times to senior disciples..
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Adamantine wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:07 pm Considering ChNN’s own experience with his gurus, the origins of the Longsal, and his activity in the dreams of his students, let’s not write off the possibility that he may clarify things within dreams at appropriate times to senior disciples..
Seems 100% possible to me.
I hope so.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by billy hudson »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:02 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:29 pm
Norwegian wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:07 pmThe ball is entirely in the court of the Dzogchen Community as an official body. They have to make clear and must make clear what their vision is, what the way forward is. No more waiting. No more keeping things within the four walls of tired bureaucracy.
Well, yes, if there are any directives. If there are none -- as seems to be the case -- then we need to decide the direction together. To do so, we need absolute clarity and transparency, plus as much respectful and well-informed discussing and debating as possible. And I do not mean gossiping or conspiring in the shadows. We need to do it the proper way.
We will evolve past the present situation. No one knows what that will look like.
Indeed. Hard to miss that Norbu likes the word "evolve". "Evolve" is different from "develop". The Little Song of Do as You Please is a good read for anyone who has worries.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Danny »

Adamantine wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:07 pm Considering ChNN’s own experience with his gurus, the origins of the Longsal, and his activity in the dreams of his students, let’s not write off the possibility that he may clarify things within dreams at appropriate times to senior disciples..
Yes, this is a good possibility. They don’t have to be senior.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

in this times there must be much unity, much faith and keep practicing with no hesitation, so we together successfully overcome the various maras.

when practitioners doubt, dispute, quits, and alike, they became an easy target, seized and obstacled. be warned.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Fa Dao »

Pang Mipham Gonpo was an 85 year old monk when he received the Longde teachings from Vairocana. He and 7 of his successors achieved Rainbow body. Whose to say that someone in the DC wont get to the third level of visions and then be willing to step up?
In other words..it aint over till its over!
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Fa Dao wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:26 am Pang Mipham Gonpo was an 85 year old monk when he received the Longde teachings from Vairocana. He and 7 of his successors achieved Rainbow body. Whose to say that someone in the DC wont get to the third level of visions and then be willing to step up?
In other words..it aint over till its over!
Third vision is an iideal, it is not really a requirement. Good thing too, cause if it were, ChNN would have waited too long to begin. ChNNs original plan had people giving introduction after level 4.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Fa Dao »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:45 am
Fa Dao wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:26 am Pang Mipham Gonpo was an 85 year old monk when he received the Longde teachings from Vairocana. He and 7 of his successors achieved Rainbow body. Whose to say that someone in the DC wont get to the third level of visions and then be willing to step up?
In other words..it aint over till its over!
Third vision is an iideal, it is not really a requirement. Good thing too, cause if it were, ChNN would have waited too long to begin. ChNNs original plan had people giving introduction after level 4.
Just trying to brighten things up a bit..lot of despair going around :D
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:45 am
Fa Dao wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:26 am Pang Mipham Gonpo was an 85 year old monk when he received the Longde teachings from Vairocana. He and 7 of his successors achieved Rainbow body. Whose to say that someone in the DC wont get to the third level of visions and then be willing to step up?
In other words..it aint over till its over!
Third vision is an iideal, it is not really a requirement. Good thing too, cause if it were, ChNN would have waited too long to begin. ChNNs original plan had people giving introduction after level 4.
What level have folks gotten to?
If no one got as far as level 4, are the steps to that point fully outlined?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

climb-up wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:10 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:45 am
Fa Dao wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:26 am Pang Mipham Gonpo was an 85 year old monk when he received the Longde teachings from Vairocana. He and 7 of his successors achieved Rainbow body. Whose to say that someone in the DC wont get to the third level of visions and then be willing to step up?
In other words..it aint over till its over!
Third vision is an iideal, it is not really a requirement. Good thing too, cause if it were, ChNN would have waited too long to begin. ChNNs original plan had people giving introduction after level 4.
What level have folks gotten to?
If no one got as far as level 4, are the steps to that point fully outlined?
Several people are on level four. Of course this is also arbitrary, since this level
Of klong sde does not imply third vision.
Last edited by jake on Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed quote error.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

climb-up wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:10 am

What level have folks gotten to?
If no one got as far as level 4, are the steps to that point fully outlined?
Several people are on level four. Of course this is also arbitrary, since this level of klong sde does not imply third vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:21 am
climb-up wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:10 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:45 am

Third vision is an iideal, it is not really a requirement. Good thing too, cause if it were, ChNN would have waited too long to begin. ChNNs original plan had people giving introduction after level 4.
What level have folks gotten to?
If no one got as far as level 4, are the steps to that point fully outlined?
[/quotte]

Several people are on level four. Of course this is also arbitrary, since this level
Of klong sde does not imply third vision.
Oh wow, that still kind seems like a big deal if the original intent was for people at level four to give DI.
It means that there was at least a plan for this particular lineage to continue (it’s just seemed odd to me that ChNN didn’t seem to have one, or at least didn’t spell it out for us) and ...maaaayybeeee these good people are the ones who could do it!
Right?
...maybe?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

climb-up wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:27 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:21 am
climb-up wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:10 am

What level have folks gotten to?
If no one got as far as level 4, are the steps to that point fully outlined?
[/quotte]

Several people are on level four. Of course this is also arbitrary, since this level
Of klong sde does not imply third vision.
Oh wow, that still kind seems like a big deal if the original intent was for people at level four to give DI.
It means that there was at least a plan for this particular lineage to continue (it’s just seemed odd to me that ChNN didn’t seem to have one, or at least didn’t spell it out for us) and ...maaaayybeeee these good people are the ones who could do it!
Right?
...maybe?
people really don’t understand history of SMS, and why rinpoche created it.
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