Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Ignorant_Fool
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Ignorant_Fool »

We are now in a different situation and have to take full responsibility for ourselves. After Rinpoche passed away some people were upset or shocked and asked who would be his successor now. This idea is not good from the beginning. If we have a worldly business or organization, then we need a successor, someone to take care, otherwise this business fails. In Tibet it was like that and the monasteries needed successors otherwise the economy of the monasteries would go down. It is the same here for the Community and some people say that the membership is half of what it was last year and that many problems are arising. But we should think well about this. Is it the reason, the main point, why we have been following Dzogchen teaching? It is not. Dzogchen teaching means that each of us can be Rinpoche’s successor if we apply and realize his teaching, like sowing many seeds in a field as Rinpoche did for thousands of people in this world. Then it depends how the secondary causes are, the weather, the water and these kinds of things. Each of us is following his own path in his own way, but we are all travelling in the same direction.

So I think it is very important now that all the Community remains together and that we always try to be present and aware of our situation. In Vajrayana, it is said that after we receive empowerment, it becomes like a snake that enters into a tube (who can only exit at one end or the other, e.g. liberation or lowest states). Why? Because in general after we receive Vajrayana initiation we have to follow all our samayas, our commitments, at the cost of our life. It is the same for us – we have one very important samaya, to be present and aware. In general, in Dzogchen, if we go in a more intellectual way we have four samayas. These four samayas mean to continue in the state of instant presence. This is the main samaya. But if we are not aware, then at least we can be present. That is very possible for everyone. If we are present because we are aware of our situation, then it is not possible that we cannot know if we are doing something wrong.


Adriano Clemente
August 11, 2020
http://melong.com/being-present-aware-situation/
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:02 am I rewatched the movie yesterday, as I was reminded of it by the latest posts, it's nice. It does not really bring up people creating problems though, as far as I could tell, It focuses on Yeshi's relationship with his father and his struggle with being a tulku.
ChNN's cancer was directly related to people creating peoblems. and afaik he had it a 2nd time in his last years, causing his death.

or well, maybe is just my karmic vision, and he died due to natural causes...
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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:26 pm
Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:02 am I rewatched the movie yesterday, as I was reminded of it by the latest posts, it's nice. It does not really bring up people creating problems though, as far as I could tell, It focuses on Yeshi's relationship with his father and his struggle with being a tulku.
ChNN's cancer was directly related to people creating peoblems. and afaik he had it a 2nd time in his last years, causing his death.

or well, maybe is just my karmic vision, and he died due to natural causes...
I can't know if it is directly related to specific actions of people, but i was talking about the movie and the book. Students creating problems is not the issue in either of these. In the book, the problems are created by people 'in the system', not by the students attending teachings.
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Harimoo
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Harimoo »

Ignorant_Fool wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:20 am
We are now in a different situation and have to take full responsibility for ourselves. After Rinpoche passed away some people were upset or shocked and asked who would be his successor now. This idea is not good from the beginning. If we have a worldly business or organization, then we need a successor, someone to take care, otherwise this business fails. In Tibet it was like that and the monasteries needed successors otherwise the economy of the monasteries would go down. It is the same here for the Community and some people say that the membership is half of what it was last year and that many problems are arising. But we should think well about this. Is it the reason, the main point, why we have been following Dzogchen teaching? It is not. Dzogchen teaching means that each of us can be Rinpoche’s successor if we apply and realize his teaching, like sowing many seeds in a field as Rinpoche did for thousands of people in this world. Then it depends how the secondary causes are, the weather, the water and these kinds of things. Each of us is following his own path in his own way, but we are all travelling in the same direction.

So I think it is very important now that all the Community remains together and that we always try to be present and aware of our situation. In Vajrayana, it is said that after we receive empowerment, it becomes like a snake that enters into a tube (who can only exit at one end or the other, e.g. liberation or lowest states). Why? Because in general after we receive Vajrayana initiation we have to follow all our samayas, our commitments, at the cost of our life. It is the same for us – we have one very important samaya, to be present and aware. In general, in Dzogchen, if we go in a more intellectual way we have four samayas. These four samayas mean to continue in the state of instant presence. This is the main samaya. But if we are not aware, then at least we can be present. That is very possible for everyone. If we are present because we are aware of our situation, then it is not possible that we cannot know if we are doing something wrong.


Adriano Clemente
August 11, 2020
http://melong.com/being-present-aware-situation/
I like Adriano very much but, for me, this message, specifically, is problematic :
1st part: we've got to be responsible for ourselves, each of us following his own path
2nd part : the Community must remain together
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Harimoo wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:42 pm
I like Adriano very much but, for me, this message, specifically, is problematic :
1st part: we've got to be responsible for ourselves, each of us following his own path
2nd part : the Community must remain together
Dzogchen teaching means that each of us can be Rinpoche’s successor if we apply and realize his teaching, like sowing many seeds in a field as Rinpoche did for thousands of people in this world. Then it depends how the secondary causes are, the weather, the water and these kinds of things
so, the lineage of ChNN will continue, regardless of whether Yeshi is in or out.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:26 pm
Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:02 am I rewatched the movie yesterday, as I was reminded of it by the latest posts, it's nice. It does not really bring up people creating problems though, as far as I could tell, It focuses on Yeshi's relationship with his father and his struggle with being a tulku.
ChNN's cancer was directly related to people creating peoblems. and afaik he had it a 2nd time in his last years, causing his death.

or well, maybe is just my karmic vision, and he died due to natural causes...
This is just superstition, I am afraid. ChNN lived to the same age as the Buddha.
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Harimoo
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Harimoo »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:46 pm so, the lineage of ChNN will continue, regardless of whether Yeshi is in or out.
For me, the lineage is not the problem. The problem is the organization. People immigrated to work for a Gar, other bought house nearby for their old days, some have jobs related to DC etc.

If the party is over...
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Harimoo wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:46 pm so, the lineage of ChNN will continue, regardless of whether Yeshi is in or out.
For me, the lineage is not the problem. The problem is the organization. People immigrated to work for a Gar, other bought house nearby for their old days, some have jobs related to DC etc.

If the party is over...
That party is over...
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DechenDave
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by DechenDave »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:26 pm
Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:02 am I rewatched the movie yesterday, as I was reminded of it by the latest posts, it's nice. It does not really bring up people creating problems though, as far as I could tell, It focuses on Yeshi's relationship with his father and his struggle with being a tulku.
ChNN's cancer was directly related to people creating peoblems. and afaik he had it a 2nd time in his last years, causing his death.

or well, maybe is just my karmic vision, and he died due to natural causes...
Did Rinpoche say that’s why he had cancer? If not, who did? Is this a commonly agreed upon thing in the DC?
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

DechenDave wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:22 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:26 pm
Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:02 am I rewatched the movie yesterday, as I was reminded of it by the latest posts, it's nice. It does not really bring up people creating problems though, as far as I could tell, It focuses on Yeshi's relationship with his father and his struggle with being a tulku.
ChNN's cancer was directly related to people creating peoblems. and afaik he had it a 2nd time in his last years, causing his death.

or well, maybe is just my karmic vision, and he died due to natural causes...
Did Rinpoche say that’s why he had cancer? If not, who did? Is this a commonly agreed upon thing in the DC?
All compounded things are impermanent, including the physical bodies of famous teachers, including the body of Śākyamuni Buddha. Some people have the idea that if people break their samaya, it will shorten the life of a teacher, or cause health problems for the teacher. But in ChNN's case, he lived a full 80 years, the same age as the Buddha. If breaking samaya was really a cause for a teacher's early demise, I think the life span of teachers would be shorter than the battlefield life of a tank, about one week.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:56 pm
DechenDave wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:22 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:26 pm

ChNN's cancer was directly related to people creating peoblems. and afaik he had it a 2nd time in his last years, causing his death.

or well, maybe is just my karmic vision, and he died due to natural causes...
Did Rinpoche say that’s why he had cancer? If not, who did? Is this a commonly agreed upon thing in the DC?
All compounded things are impermanent, including the physical bodies of famous teachers, including the body of Śākyamuni Buddha. Some people have the idea that if people break their samaya, it will shorten the life of a teacher, or cause health problems for the teacher. But in ChNN's case, he lived a full 80 years, the same age as the Buddha. If breaking samaya was really a cause for a teacher's early demise, I think the life span of teachers would be shorter than the battlefield life of a tank, about one week.
He did stated, several times, that when he was sick it was better to do purification practice than long life tho.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Harimoo »

Rinpoche should have died at 56.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Tata1 wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:56 pm
DechenDave wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:22 pm

Did Rinpoche say that’s why he had cancer? If not, who did? Is this a commonly agreed upon thing in the DC?
All compounded things are impermanent, including the physical bodies of famous teachers, including the body of Śākyamuni Buddha. Some people have the idea that if people break their samaya, it will shorten the life of a teacher, or cause health problems for the teacher. But in ChNN's case, he lived a full 80 years, the same age as the Buddha. If breaking samaya was really a cause for a teacher's early demise, I think the life span of teachers would be shorter than the battlefield life of a tank, about one week.
He did stated, several times, that when he was sick it was better to do purification practice than long life tho.
To understand this we have to understand two things: 1) the cause of longevity: merit, and lifeforce (this is why most longevity mantras contain "ayuḥpunya"; and 2) the object of purification: the obscurations of affliction and knowledge, to which sometimes also karma is added as an obscuration. So now you can understand the real reason teachers recommend purification practices to their students when they become ill. It certainly isn't for their own benefit in order to live longer.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Harimoo wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:11 pm Rinpoche should have died at 56.
According to a prediction he received from his teacher, yes.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by schubertian »

gossiping, backbiting, complaining, plotting and scheming and intestine feuding
I think - I hope - you mean internecine feuding?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

schubertian wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:14 pm
gossiping, backbiting, complaining, plotting and scheming and intestine feuding i
I think - I hope - you mean internecine feuding?
Damn you autocorrect! (On second thoughts, thank you, autocorrect, for lightening up the mood. I rest in the safety of knowing you will do it again. And again. And again.)
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:32 pm
schubertian wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:14 pm
gossiping, backbiting, complaining, plotting and scheming and intestine feuding i
I think - I hope - you mean internecine feuding?
Damn you autocorrect! (On second thoughts, thank you, autocorrect, for lightening up the mood. I rest in the safety of knowing you will do it again. And again. And again.)
intestinal feuding definitely happens when fed a diet of bullshit.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Gedun »

I can't know if it is directly related to specific actions of people, but i was talking about the movie and the book. Students creating problems is not the issue in either of these. In the book, the problems are created by people 'in the system', not by the students attending teachings.
Rinpoche clearly said in "My Reincarnation" that when he died, the community would split into 8 parts and fight with each other, as it happened with the Buddha.

Going by memory (he may not have specifically said 8 parts, but that's my recollection). IIRC, it's around the scene where there is a teaching and some guy is trying to assist a woman and her ward with a bike, or something like that - he was trying to help them b/c they were having a hard time carrying things and walking. The older woman pulled back and snapped "No - you only help because Rinpoche is watching" or something like that.

This and other scenes clearly hinted and foreshadowed the burden on Rinpoche. The way the movie ended - with him and Yeshi joking about Rinpoche's "mistakes of youth" and how he took on responsibility for thousands of students instead of just studying music.

Rinpoche literally pleaded with us constantly to treat each other well, to have pure vision and give the benefit of the doubt. I certainly don't see this when people are quick to indict Yeshi based on a few things they've heard second hand. This will have absolutely no effect on him or the situation on the ground, but it can certainly have an effect on us and our realization.

To be a Dzogchen teacher with many students is incredibly heavy. The guru must weather an endless stream of temporal and spiritual buffetings brought on by their students, especially as a community matures. We will never see a teacher like ChNNR again.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:30 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:32 pm
schubertian wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:14 pm

I think - I hope - you mean internecine feuding?
Damn you autocorrect! (On second thoughts, thank you, autocorrect, for lightening up the mood. I rest in the safety of knowing you will do it again. And again. And again.)
intestinal feuding definitely happens when fed a diet of bullshit.
God's honest truth:

To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Mantrik
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:30 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:32 pm
schubertian wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:14 pm

I think - I hope - you mean internecine feuding?
Damn you autocorrect! (On second thoughts, thank you, autocorrect, for lightening up the mood. I rest in the safety of knowing you will do it again. And again. And again.)
intestinal feuding definitely happens when fed a diet of bullshit.
I considered receiving the Empowerment of Faecal Transplant, the Dharani of Colonic Irrigation and the Mantra of Probiotics -
but decided in the end all was perfect as it was. ;)
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