Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Ignorant_Fool
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Ignorant_Fool »

Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:05 pm We will never see a teacher like ChNNR again.
The Marme Monlam reminds us that we are connected to Rinpoche and each other till enlightenment. We will see him over and over and over again. We are part of the mandala.

The DC will still be around as long as people still come together to do the collective practices. Perhaps that's as far as it'll go in its current iteration. And perhaps the Longsal teachings have served their purpose in this dimension and will die out with last practitioner who has that transmission. Perhaps. It's all speculative at this point, which isn't helpful.

All we can do now is work with our circumstances and put the teachings into practice as best we can.
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Ignorant_Fool wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:37 pm The DC will still be around as long as people still come together to do the collective practices. Perhaps that's as far as it'll go in its current iteration. And perhaps the Longsal teachings have served their purpose in this dimension and will die out with last practitioner who has that transmission. Perhaps. It's all speculative at this point, which isn't helpful.

All we can do now is work with our circumstances and put the teachings into practice as best we can.
Mid-19th century. Jamgon Kongtrul is having a beer with Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Chokgyur Lingpa, Kongrul's talking about how it's such a shame that all these practice lineages are dying out because only a few people hold them and they aren't being transmitted, and saying he's got this idea of compiling them into some kind of collection.

I don't know, says Kyentse, perhaps that's just as far as they'll go in their current iteration. I mean, why put all that effort in, running around Kham in the winter trying to find hermits in caves to get obscure empowerments? Aren't the mainstream termas good enough for you?

True, says ChokLing, perhaps these lineages have served their purpose in this dimension. They had a good run. Karma, you know?

I guess so, says Kongtrul. It's all speculative, anyway, which isn't helpful.

Yeah, says Khyentse, we just need to work with circumstances as best we can. Another beer?
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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna »

Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:05 pm
I can't know if it is directly related to specific actions of people, but i was talking about the movie and the book. Students creating problems is not the issue in either of these. In the book, the problems are created by people 'in the system', not by the students attending teachings.
Rinpoche clearly said in "My Reincarnation" that when he died, the community would split into 8 parts and fight with each other, as it happened with the Buddha.

Going by memory (he may not have specifically said 8 parts, but that's my recollection). IIRC, it's around the scene where there is a teaching and some guy is trying to assist a woman and her ward with a bike, or something like that - he was trying to help them b/c they were having a hard time carrying things and walking. The older woman pulled back and snapped "No - you only help because Rinpoche is watching" or something like that.

This and other scenes clearly hinted and foreshadowed the burden on Rinpoche. The way the movie ended - with him and Yeshi joking about Rinpoche's "mistakes of youth" and how he took on responsibility for thousands of students instead of just studying music.

Rinpoche literally pleaded with us constantly to treat each other well, to have pure vision and give the benefit of the doubt. I certainly don't see this when people are quick to indict Yeshi based on a few things they've heard second hand. This will have absolutely no effect on him or the situation on the ground, but it can certainly have an effect on us and our realization.

To be a Dzogchen teacher with many students is incredibly heavy. The guru must weather an endless stream of temporal and spiritual buffetings brought on by their students, especially as a community matures. We will never see a teacher like ChNNR again.
Yes, there was a short scene of maybe 30 seconds in a 1 hour 40 minutes movie about people not always behaving well in the community. I was only answering to the previous post that it is a central part of the movie that students create problems. As for the scene near the end, about becoming a musician, that seemed to me to be a joke. So, I got the impression the movie had nothing to do with people in the community creating problems. This is not necessarily relevant to the discussion about succession etc. though, I'm just talking about the movie.
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:05 pm Rinpoche literally pleaded with us constantly to treat each other well, to have pure vision and give the benefit of the doubt. I certainly don't see this when people are quick to indict Yeshi based on a few things they've heard second hand. This will have absolutely no effect on him or the situation on the ground, but it can certainly have an effect on us and our realization.
No one indicted Yeshi of anything. All that has been pointed out is that Yeshi totally severed his ties with a community his father spent 42 years building. He is free, as we all are. But it has caused a leadership crisis in the community.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:22 pm
Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:05 pm Rinpoche literally pleaded with us constantly to treat each other well, to have pure vision and give the benefit of the doubt. I certainly don't see this when people are quick to indict Yeshi based on a few things they've heard second hand. This will have absolutely no effect on him or the situation on the ground, but it can certainly have an effect on us and our realization.
No one indicted Yeshi of anything. All that has been pointed out is that Yeshi totally severed his ties with a community his father spent 42 years building. He is free, as we all are. But it has caused a leadership crisis in the community.
If the leadership depended of a guy who has been saying for years that he doesn't want to be the lider of it then i would say the lidership crisis goes way back.
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DechenDave
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by DechenDave »

Tata1 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:22 pm
Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:05 pm Rinpoche literally pleaded with us constantly to treat each other well, to have pure vision and give the benefit of the doubt. I certainly don't see this when people are quick to indict Yeshi based on a few things they've heard second hand. This will have absolutely no effect on him or the situation on the ground, but it can certainly have an effect on us and our realization.
No one indicted Yeshi of anything. All that has been pointed out is that Yeshi totally severed his ties with a community his father spent 42 years building. He is free, as we all are. But it has caused a leadership crisis in the community.
If the leadership depended of a guy who has been saying for years that he doesn't want to be the lider of it then i would say the lidership crisis goes way back.
Goes way back whom or what?
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

igor berkin is going to give a teaching on

*Four Awarenesses for Those who Doubt Reincarnation*

Explanation, practice, discussion.

Even though Dzogchen is not a religion, still, many secondary practices,particularly those coming from Sutra and Tantra, have general Buddhist religious faith as a prerequisite. One of the most crucial points for the Buddhist narrative is reincarnation. Many Western people can easily accept this idea but still there are others who would doubt and question this belief which so far doesn’t have a convincing scientific proof.

Even though numerous Buddhist teachers frequently quote the words ascribed to the Buddha that nobody should rely on Dharma out of blind faith but should check and test whatever is said, there’s no way we can test the issue of reincarnation. And the logical reasoning provided by traditional Buddhist teachers is hardly persuasive for modern educated people well familiar with logic and critical thinking.

But for practicing Dzogchen we need neither to be Buddhists nor believe in reincarnation. Understanding how mind works through causes and conditions (primary and secondary causes), knowing its nature to be like a mirror we can use the essence of so called “four awarenesses” for developing our presence to eventually become able to go beyond whatever narrative including the Buddhist one. Because any narrative always belongs to the domain of mind while the knowledge of Dzogchen is beyond mind.
i cannot unnotice the topic ¿this has to do w/ YN? what's going on here?
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:47 pm igor berkin is going to give a teaching on

*Four Awarenesses for Those who Doubt Reincarnation*

Explanation, practice, discussion.

Even though Dzogchen is not a religion, still, many secondary practices,particularly those coming from Sutra and Tantra, have general Buddhist religious faith as a prerequisite. One of the most crucial points for the Buddhist narrative is reincarnation. Many Western people can easily accept this idea but still there are others who would doubt and question this belief which so far doesn’t have a convincing scientific proof.

Even though numerous Buddhist teachers frequently quote the words ascribed to the Buddha that nobody should rely on Dharma out of blind faith but should check and test whatever is said, there’s no way we can test the issue of reincarnation. And the logical reasoning provided by traditional Buddhist teachers is hardly persuasive for modern educated people well familiar with logic and critical thinking.

But for practicing Dzogchen we need neither to be Buddhists nor believe in reincarnation. Understanding how mind works through causes and conditions (primary and secondary causes), knowing its nature to be like a mirror we can use the essence of so called “four awarenesses” for developing our presence to eventually become able to go beyond whatever narrative including the Buddhist one. Because any narrative always belongs to the domain of mind while the knowledge of Dzogchen is beyond mind.
i cannot unnotice the topic ¿this has to do w/ YN? what's going on here?
Ok we really need to chill. Now we are starting to look like bad "journalist" on a bad football(soccer) show speculating about what the secret meaning of what someone says is.

Igor is always teaching in different kind of subjects.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:52 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:47 pm igor berkin is going to give a teaching on

*Four Awarenesses for Those who Doubt Reincarnation*

Explanation, practice, discussion.

Even though Dzogchen is not a religion, still, many secondary practices,particularly those coming from Sutra and Tantra, have general Buddhist religious faith as a prerequisite. One of the most crucial points for the Buddhist narrative is reincarnation. Many Western people can easily accept this idea but still there are others who would doubt and question this belief which so far doesn’t have a convincing scientific proof.

Even though numerous Buddhist teachers frequently quote the words ascribed to the Buddha that nobody should rely on Dharma out of blind faith but should check and test whatever is said, there’s no way we can test the issue of reincarnation. And the logical reasoning provided by traditional Buddhist teachers is hardly persuasive for modern educated people well familiar with logic and critical thinking.

But for practicing Dzogchen we need neither to be Buddhists nor believe in reincarnation. Understanding how mind works through causes and conditions (primary and secondary causes), knowing its nature to be like a mirror we can use the essence of so called “four awarenesses” for developing our presence to eventually become able to go beyond whatever narrative including the Buddhist one. Because any narrative always belongs to the domain of mind while the knowledge of Dzogchen is beyond mind.
i cannot unnotice the topic ¿this has to do w/ YN? what's going on here?
Ok we really need to chill. Now we are starting to look like bad "journalist" on a bad football(soccer) show speculating about what the secret meaning of what someone says is.

Igor is always teaching in different kind of subjects.
it just surprised me; given te circumstance i think the topic is unwise. it doesn't help.

but you are right. it ain't my bussiness really.
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LhakpaT
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by LhakpaT »


And the logical reasoning provided by traditional Buddhist teachers is hardly persuasive for modern educated people well familiar with logic and critical thinking.
:shock:
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

LhakpaT wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:01 pm

And the logical reasoning provided by traditional Buddhist teachers is hardly persuasive for modern educated people well familiar with logic and critical thinking.
:shock:
Yes, because we are so much smarter than the Buddha. :rolling:
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:13 pm
LhakpaT wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:01 pm

And the logical reasoning provided by traditional Buddhist teachers is hardly persuasive for modern educated people well familiar with logic and critical thinking.
:shock:
Yes, because we are so much smarter than the Buddha. :rolling:
It is as if Igor's world was 18th century Europe. Wuvewy.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc »

Four Awarenesses for Those who Doubt Reincarnation
" Because any narrative always belongs to the domain of mind while the knowledge of Dzogchen is beyond mind."

The teachings and study of Dzogchen without DI is not of very much use.
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

amanitamusc wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:59 pm Four Awarenesses for Those who Doubt Reincarnation
" Because any narrative always belongs to the domain of mind while the knowledge of Dzogchen is beyond mind."

The teachings and study of Dzogchen without DI is not of very much use.
Actually, none at all. Complete waste of time better spent practicing a sadhana, etc.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Ignorant_Fool »

Has Rinpoche ever mentioned who the guardians in the African continent are?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik »

Ignorant_Fool wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:20 pm Has Rinpoche ever mentioned who the guardians in the African continent are?
I've not come across it, and just checked the Teachings on the Thun and Ganapuja book. If he hasn't perhaps use the 'Local Guardians of Place and Time'?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Mantrik wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:52 pm
Ignorant_Fool wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:20 pm Has Rinpoche ever mentioned who the guardians in the African continent are?
I've not come across it, and just checked the Teachings on the Thun and Ganapuja book. If he hasn't perhaps use the 'Local Guardians of Place and Time'?
dharma isn't widely spread there, so there is no dharmapala. i think.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:16 pm
Mantrik wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:52 pm
Ignorant_Fool wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:20 pm Has Rinpoche ever mentioned who the guardians in the African continent are?
I've not come across it, and just checked the Teachings on the Thun and Ganapuja book. If he hasn't perhaps use the 'Local Guardians of Place and Time'?
dharma isn't widely spread there, so there is no dharmapala. i think.
It wasn't even in America. Rinpoche saw how the landscape in the USA looked like and based on that assumed that certain class of beings is very powerful there. That is why North America has who it has as a special dharmapala.

There are not really any practitioners in Africa (from DC I mean and if there are it is just few people), plus Rinpoche never went to Africa. When he was supposed to go there for the first time he fell sick. So, we will never know what guardian would be for Africa.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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LhakpaT
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by LhakpaT »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:16 pm
Mantrik wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:52 pm
Ignorant_Fool wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:20 pm Has Rinpoche ever mentioned who the guardians in the African continent are?
I've not come across it, and just checked the Teachings on the Thun and Ganapuja book. If he hasn't perhaps use the 'Local Guardians of Place and Time'?
dharma isn't widely spread there, so there is no dharmapala. i think.
How many would there have to be?
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:25 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:16 pm
Mantrik wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:52 pm
I've not come across it, and just checked the Teachings on the Thun and Ganapuja book. If he hasn't perhaps use the 'Local Guardians of Place and Time'?
dharma isn't widely spread there, so there is no dharmapala. i think.
It wasn't even in America. Rinpoche saw how the landscape in the USA looked like and based on that assumed that certain class of beings is very powerful there. That is why North America has who it has as a special dharmapala.

There are not really any practitioners in Africa (from DC I mean and if there are it is just few people), plus Rinpoche never went to Africa. When he was supposed to go there for the first time he fell sick. So, we will never know what guardian would be for Africa.
prior to the arival of dharma there is no reason for a dharmapala to take over.
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