Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:25 pm

Felix wrote:I at no point said that ChNN downplays or negates Bodhicitta.What I said was that he has said (in my hearing) that he cautioned us against striving to feel empathy or striving to feel compassion because it is counter productive. I am paraphrasing his words.
As he says one way we generate Bodhicitta is by acts of compassion. This is not dependant on our subjective mindset.


You misunderstood obviously, it is a good idea to read Rinpoches book. Developing the bodhicitta of intention and application is an integral part of the path as Rinpoche teach it.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Felix » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:19 pm

I think the misunderstanding is yours. Rinpoche during the same exchange clarified his pronouncement.
I think you perhaps need to read my post again.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:25 pm

heart wrote:
Felix wrote:I at no point said that ChNN downplays or negates Bodhicitta.What I said was that he has said (in my hearing) that he cautioned us against striving to feel empathy or striving to feel compassion because it is counter productive. I am paraphrasing his words.
As he says one way we generate Bodhicitta is by acts of compassion. This is not dependant on our subjective mindset.


You misunderstood obviously, it is a good idea to read Rinpoches book. Developing the bodhicitta of intention and application is an integral part of the path as Rinpoche teach it.

/magnus



Hi Magnus:

What Rinpoche has said consistently since I started following him is that contrived bodhicitta is well, contrived. Bodhicitta that arises from seeing that the reason sentient beings suffer from not having recognized their own state on the basis of having recognized one's own is much better. The former can become maudlin sentimentality. The latter is genuine.

The reason he has standard teachings on bodhicitta in the Precious Vase and so on is that one needs to understand the differences between various kinds of bodhicitta if one is going to be a teacher. Remember, the Precious Vase is in fact a teachers manual. I am quite certain of this since the first retreat I ever attended was the first US SMS Base level retreat in 1992. He addressed this question at length, responding to criticisms that he never taught bodhicitta.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Felix » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:26 pm

:good:

Exactly.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Felix wrote:I at no point said that ChNN downplays or negates Bodhicitta.What I said was that he has said (in my hearing) that he cautioned us against striving to feel empathy or striving to feel compassion because it is counter productive. I am paraphrasing his words.
As he says one way we generate Bodhicitta is by acts of compassion. This is not dependant on our subjective mindset.


You misunderstood obviously, it is a good idea to read Rinpoches book. Developing the bodhicitta of intention and application is an integral part of the path as Rinpoche teach it.

/magnus



Hi Magnus:

What Rinpoche has said consistently since I started following him is that contrived bodhicitta is well, contrived. Bodhicitta that arises from seeing that the reason sentient beings suffer from not having recognized their own state on the basis of having recognized one's own is much better. The former can become maudlin sentimentality. The latter is genuine.

The reason he has standard teachings on bodhicitta in the Precious Vase and so on is that one needs to understand the differences between various kinds of bodhicitta if one is going to be a teacher. Remember, the Precious Vase is in fact a teachers manual. I am quite certain of this since the first retreat I ever attended was the first US SMS Base level retreat in 1992. He addressed this question at length, responding to criticisms that he never taught bodhicitta.


"Maudlin sentimentality" isn't Bodhicitta on any level of teaching Malcolm. Rinpoche makes pretty clear how Bodhicitta is integrated in the path in "The foundations of the path".

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:43 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
You misunderstood obviously, it is a good idea to read Rinpoches book. Developing the bodhicitta of intention and application is an integral part of the path as Rinpoche teach it.

/magnus



Hi Magnus:

What Rinpoche has said consistently since I started following him is that contrived bodhicitta is well, contrived. Bodhicitta that arises from seeing that the reason sentient beings suffer from not having recognized their own state on the basis of having recognized one's own is much better. The former can become maudlin sentimentality. The latter is genuine.

The reason he has standard teachings on bodhicitta in the Precious Vase and so on is that one needs to understand the differences between various kinds of bodhicitta if one is going to be a teacher. Remember, the Precious Vase is in fact a teachers manual. I am quite certain of this since the first retreat I ever attended was the first US SMS Base level retreat in 1992. He addressed this question at length, responding to criticisms that he never taught bodhicitta.


"Maudlin sentimentality" isn't Bodhicitta on any level of teaching Malcolm. Rinpoche makes pretty clear how Bodhicitta is integrated in the path in "The foundations of the path".

/magnus



Magnus,

Rinpoche states again and again it is better to have bodhicitta based on recognition of one's real state then the contrived bodhicitta of common Mahāyāna. He is not saying bodhicitta is unnecessary, he is distinguishing contrived bodhicitta from authentic bodhicitta and the need to give rise to the latter rather than the former since the former is not stable and can disappear in a second.

For this reason, he uses the generation of bodhicitta that comes from the Anuyoga tantras:

    I and all sentient beings
    have always been buddhas;
    recognizing this to be so,
    I generate supreme bodhicitta.

M
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Hi Magnus:

What Rinpoche has said consistently since I started following him is that contrived bodhicitta is well, contrived. Bodhicitta that arises from seeing that the reason sentient beings suffer from not having recognized their own state on the basis of having recognized one's own is much better. The former can become maudlin sentimentality. The latter is genuine.

The reason he has standard teachings on bodhicitta in the Precious Vase and so on is that one needs to understand the differences between various kinds of bodhicitta if one is going to be a teacher. Remember, the Precious Vase is in fact a teachers manual. I am quite certain of this since the first retreat I ever attended was the first US SMS Base level retreat in 1992. He addressed this question at length, responding to criticisms that he never taught bodhicitta.


"Maudlin sentimentality" isn't Bodhicitta on any level of teaching Malcolm. Rinpoche makes pretty clear how Bodhicitta is integrated in the path in "The foundations of the path".

/magnus



Magnus,

Rinpoche states again and again it is better to have bodhicitta based on recognition of one's real state then the contrived bodhicitta of common Mahāyāna. He is not saying bodhicitta is unnecessary, he is distinguishing contrived bodhicitta from authentic bodhicitta and the need to give rise to the latter rather than the former since the former is not stable and can disappear in a second.

For this reason, he uses the generation of bodhicitta that comes from the Anuyoga tantras:

    I and all sentient beings
    have always been buddhas;
    recognizing this to be so,
    I generate supreme bodhicitta.

M


Seems like I only know about authentic Bodhicitta then. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:52 pm

heart wrote:
Seems like I only know about authentic Bodhicitta then. :smile:

/magnus


He is contrasting this with the gradual process of developing bodhicitta in Mahāyāna where you first take the bodhisattva vow, and then you spend time cultivating love and compassion, practicing tons of tonglen, etc.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Seems like I only know about authentic Bodhicitta then. :smile:

/magnus


He is contrasting this with the gradual process of developing bodhicitta in Mahāyāna where you first take the bodhisattva vow, and then you spend time cultivating love and compassion, practicing tons of tonglen, etc.


If you have a valid understanding and some experience of emptiness it can be completely valid path. Probably Rinpoche find the Sarma tradition style of first training in relative Bodhicitta and the later ultimate Bodhicitta a little superficial.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:22 pm

heart wrote: Probably Rinpoche find the Sarma tradition style of first training in relative Bodhicitta and the later ultimate Bodhicitta a little superficial.



Yes, that is what we have been saying.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Felix » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:22 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
"Maudlin sentimentality" isn't Bodhicitta on any level of teaching Malcolm. Rinpoche makes pretty clear how Bodhicitta is integrated in the path in "The foundations of the path".

/magnus



Magnus,

Rinpoche states again and again it is better to have bodhicitta based on recognition of one's real state then the contrived bodhicitta of common Mahāyāna. He is not saying bodhicitta is unnecessary, he is distinguishing contrived bodhicitta from authentic bodhicitta and the need to give rise to the latter rather than the former since the former is not stable and can disappear in a second.

For this reason, he uses the generation of bodhicitta that comes from the Anuyoga tantras:

    I and all sentient beings
    have always been buddhas;
    recognizing this to be so,
    I generate supreme bodhicitta.

M


Seems like I only know about authentic Bodhicitta then. :smile:

/magnus


I hope you will not misinterpret my motive , but have you actually received teachings from Rinpoche in person?
I get the impression that your views are second hand, and rooted in Tantra rather than Dzogchen.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:28 pm

Felix wrote:I hope you will not misinterpret my motive , but have you actually received teachings from Rinpoche in person?
I get the impression that your views are second hand, and rooted in Tantra rather than Dzogchen.


Yes, I have many times and once in person as well. Have you read "The Foundations of the path"?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Felix » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:41 pm

I was an advisor to the Spanish translation team.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Felix » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:48 pm

I joined this Forum in good faith in order to share views on Dzogchen. I have encountered one thread where new age teachings are being marketed as Dzogchen, and those who object to this are being labelled as ' nit pickers'.
Now I find myself in a debate which seems to conflate Dzogchen with Sutrayana.

I think I need to spend time away from Dharma Wheel to examine and review my reasons for joining.

:namaste:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:51 pm

Felix wrote:I was an advisor to the Spanish translation team.


Well in the English version Rinpoche spend a long time explaining the importance "intention" and it was the folulowing sentence that made me feel you misunderstood Rinpoches teachings "No specific practice includes no need to generate special feelings by an act of intention".

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:06 pm

Felix wrote:I joined this Forum in good faith in order to share views on Dzogchen. I have encountered one thread where new age teachings are being marketed as Dzogchen, and those who object to this are being labelled as ' nit pickers'.
Now I find myself in a debate which seems to conflate Dzogchen with Sutrayana.

I think I need to spend time away from Dharma Wheel to examine and review my reasons for joining.

:namaste:


Take it easy Felix, you have to be able to handle that someone question your statement on any forum. It happens to me all the time. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:40 pm

Felix wrote:I joined this Forum in good faith in order to share views on Dzogchen. I have encountered one thread where new age teachings are being marketed as Dzogchen, and those who object to this are being labelled as ' nit pickers'.
Now I find myself in a debate which seems to conflate Dzogchen with Sutrayana.

I think I need to spend time away from Dharma Wheel to examine and review my reasons for joining.

:namaste:



Felix, don't worry. This is all a dream.

I am not sure how much time you have spent with teachers and communities outside the DC, but trust me, they generally think we are very strange.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


There is neither sharp nor dull in the capacity of sentient beings. If it is asked why this is so, it is because an introduction is sufficient.


— Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:13 pm

Felix, just go work on your khaita. You'll be fine. :smile:
The true condition is beyond numbers. If we think in terms of an "individual being" this means that we are limiting, and consequently everything becomes complicated. If we want to understand, then we must not limit. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:24 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Felix, just go work on your khaita. You'll be fine. :smile:


Thats not really fair, khaita might look funny on video but in real life it is something else.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:33 pm

heart wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Felix, just go work on your khaita. You'll be fine. :smile:


Thats not really fair, khaita might look funny on video but in real life it is something else.

/magnus


OK, OK, I just thought he could be a bit more joyful. :smile:

It is interesting how things aren't always how they seem at first glance though, isn't it?
The true condition is beyond numbers. If we think in terms of an "individual being" this means that we are limiting, and consequently everything becomes complicated. If we want to understand, then we must not limit. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu


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