Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Mantrik
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:45 pm

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:48 pm
Of course but the questions being asked here are very basic and have been addressed before. We all need to support each other not shame them into the shadows of self doubt and isolation.
Absolutely. :)
We have to use common sense here. Some explanations are just fine, even if quoting ChNN's books or the master directly when it comes to generalities.
Other matters about mantras and rituals are definitely better asked in Tantra Talk (which is why I established it in the dim and distant past as a Mod. )
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:04 am

I don't think it is shaming, if someone thinks there is a problem it is good to say it rather than letting others continue doing something that may be wrong.

The problem is that in such cases it is not very clear how much or what kind of information is ok.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:20 am

It’s sanctamonius shaming. Anyone has the right to ask a question in regards to a practice. Anyone has the right not to answer that question because they feel it may breach samaya.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Grigoris » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:04 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:04 am
I don't think it is shaming, if someone thinks there is a problem it is good to say it rather than letting others continue doing something that may be wrong.

The problem is that in such cases it is not very clear how much or what kind of information is ok.
It's not that difficult: Information from publicly available texts and talks is permissible, information from restricted texts and talks is not permissible. Anything that falls in the grey zone should be considered as not permissible. It is better that one should err on the side of caution rather than mistakenly reveal something which is not permissible (speaking from my own personal experience :smile: ).
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aryjna » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:25 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:04 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:04 am
I don't think it is shaming, if someone thinks there is a problem it is good to say it rather than letting others continue doing something that may be wrong.

The problem is that in such cases it is not very clear how much or what kind of information is ok.
It's not that difficult: Information from publicly available texts and talks is permissible, information from restricted texts and talks is not permissible. Anything that falls in the grey zone should be considered as not permissible. It is better that one should err on the side of caution rather than mistakenly reveal something which is not permissible (speaking from my own personal experience :smile: ).
In practice it seems not everyone agrees on that.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Pero » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:28 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:04 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:04 am
I don't think it is shaming, if someone thinks there is a problem it is good to say it rather than letting others continue doing something that may be wrong.

The problem is that in such cases it is not very clear how much or what kind of information is ok.
It's not that difficult: Information from publicly available texts and talks is permissible, information from restricted texts and talks is not permissible. Anything that falls in the grey zone should be considered as not permissible. It is better that one should err on the side of caution rather than mistakenly reveal something which is not permissible (speaking from my own personal experience :smile: ).
Personally as the years go by the more conservative I seem to become. At this point I often feel like it's better not to talk anything at all about practices in public, even the little I mentioned in my last post. :shrug:
Often what is publicly available and what is restricted is the same thing, so IMO that alone puts in the gray zone. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:39 pm

Pero wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:28 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:04 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:04 am
I don't think it is shaming, if someone thinks there is a problem it is good to say it rather than letting others continue doing something that may be wrong.

The problem is that in such cases it is not very clear how much or what kind of information is ok.
It's not that difficult: Information from publicly available texts and talks is permissible, information from restricted texts and talks is not permissible. Anything that falls in the grey zone should be considered as not permissible. It is better that one should err on the side of caution rather than mistakenly reveal something which is not permissible (speaking from my own personal experience :smile: ).
Personally as the years go by the more conservative I seem to become. At this point I often feel like it's better not to talk anything at all about practices in public, even the little I mentioned in my last post. :shrug:
Often what is publicly available and what is restricted is the same thing, so IMO that alone puts in the gray zone. :smile:
you might be right, after all, teaching is not ours to give; but i think we should help each other in a practical way. "¿how i do this?", "¿what i need for this?", etc., simple things.

:thinking:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Vasana » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:49 pm

Pero wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:28 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:04 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:04 am
I don't think it is shaming, if someone thinks there is a problem it is good to say it rather than letting others continue doing something that may be wrong.

The problem is that in such cases it is not very clear how much or what kind of information is ok.
It's not that difficult: Information from publicly available texts and talks is permissible, information from restricted texts and talks is not permissible. Anything that falls in the grey zone should be considered as not permissible. It is better that one should err on the side of caution rather than mistakenly reveal something which is not permissible (speaking from my own personal experience :smile: ).
Personally as the years go by the more conservative I seem to become. At this point I often feel like it's better not to talk anything at all about practices in public, even the little I mentioned in my last post. :shrug:
Often what is publicly available and what is restricted is the same thing, so IMO that alone puts in the gray zone. :smile:
This mirrors my position too. It's really not about sanctimonious shaming. Maybe if my own conduct was perfect I could fool myself to think like that that but it's really about reminding each other to just be a little more careful. These things are very tricky, perhaps more so than we realize. Best to err on the side of caution, imo.

Also, just because something is publicly available doesn't mean we should be drawing attention to it again and again but of course, ymmv.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:28 pm

What are you guys talking about? that someone mentioned meat and wine at Ganapuja? What restricted information is being referenced?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:12 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:28 pm
What are you guys talking about? that someone mentioned meat and wine at Ganapuja? What restricted information is being referenced?
i was talking about when lit incenses and what to do when one has alcohol, also why collective practice is far much better. some of those things are mentioned, mentioned, in restricted materials.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:20 am

Vasana wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:49 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:28 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:04 am
It's not that difficult: Information from publicly available texts and talks is permissible, information from restricted texts and talks is not permissible. Anything that falls in the grey zone should be considered as not permissible. It is better that one should err on the side of caution rather than mistakenly reveal something which is not permissible (speaking from my own personal experience :smile: ).
Personally as the years go by the more conservative I seem to become. At this point I often feel like it's better not to talk anything at all about practices in public, even the little I mentioned in my last post. :shrug:
Often what is publicly available and what is restricted is the same thing, so IMO that alone puts in the gray zone. :smile:
This mirrors my position too. It's really not about sanctimonious shaming. Maybe if my own conduct was perfect I could fool myself to think like that that but it's really about reminding each other to just be a little more careful. These things are very tricky, perhaps more so than we realize. Best to err on the side of caution, imo.

Also, just because something is publicly available doesn't mean we should be drawing attention to it again and again but of course, ymmv.


Dude, you coming into threads acting like the hall monitor does nothing but irritate people. This thread and the ones on the now defunct Vajracakra have been a godsend for practitioners who don't have access to SMS instructors, or just need a point in the right direction so they could do their practice with confidence and ASAP. I'd like to leave it to the DC vets to point out when something should not be posted ie Malcolm, Oldbob, Krodha,etc...

Again there really hasn't been anything inappropriate posted in this thread recently.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:17 am

:popcorn:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:34 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:12 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:28 pm
What are you guys talking about? that someone mentioned meat and wine at Ganapuja? What restricted information is being referenced?
i was talking about when lit incenses and what to do when one has alcohol, also why collective practice is far much better. some of those things are mentioned, mentioned, in restricted materials.
Anyone who has ever been to tsok etc. would know this sort of thing, or at least familiarity...I really don't see the concern, everyting said has been so generic.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:28 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:34 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:12 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:28 pm
What are you guys talking about? that someone mentioned meat and wine at Ganapuja? What restricted information is being referenced?
i was talking about when lit incenses and what to do when one has alcohol, also why collective practice is far much better. some of those things are mentioned, mentioned, in restricted materials.
Anyone who has ever been to tsok etc. would know this sort of thing, or at least familiarity...I really don't see the concern, everyting said has been so generic.
and i agree, is something very simple, very generic, no matter to panic.

however not everyone knows many things in a precise way; for example i myself practiced with mistakes for years because i had no clear answer, no book but a thun book, and people around didn't know -but believed to know haha- so i learned in a wrong way for such time. now, with books in hand, many devoted efforts are cleared toward a clean pratice, i mean in the correct way.

i would love to have had an old practitioner who actually read his practices and performed them correctly, to whom i could ask such simple things from the begining. no need to mention learning the melody tones, because there is also a correct way to sing.

so to resume, going to a tsok/ganapuya doesn't mean understand why/how, for example, a candle is lighted, or an incense is burned, or what the vajra movements mean, etc.

it's my humble opinion on this. even now i have a lot of questions and i'm looking for answers.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:01 am

Maybe we should all relax and be a little less paranoid.
Like someone said anyone can ask questions and anyone can chose not to answer

Maybe all this paranoia going on here ans in the other thread just locked up is more samaya damaging than the simple questions asked here between vajra brothers.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by lelopa » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:35 am

Tata1 wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:01 am
Maybe we should all relax and be a little less paranoid.
Like someone said anyone can ask questions and anyone can chose not to answer

Maybe all this paranoia going on here ans in the other thread just locked up is more samaya damaging than the simple questions asked here between vajra brothers.
:good:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Lukeinaz » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:17 pm

Does any one have the Tibetan verses for the Guru Yoga with White A they would be willing to send me?
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by ratna » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:01 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:17 pm
Does any one have the Tibetan verses for the Guru Yoga with White A they would be willing to send me?
Sure, PM your e-mail address.

R

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Lukeinaz » Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:44 am

in the great book "The Mirror", it is said:

"it is this decisive knowing, this pure presence of the true original condition, that is called nirvana."

so i thought the primordial state is beyond both samsara and nirvana. here it sounds otherwise. thoughts?
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:30 am

Lukeinaz wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:44 am
in the great book "The Mirror", it is said:

"it is this decisive knowing, this pure presence of the true original condition, that is called nirvana."

so i thought the primordial state is beyond both samsara and nirvana. here it sounds otherwise. thoughts?
I'm guessing it's no different than some sutra (Lankavatara if I recall is one) that describe non-abiding Nirvana as "Nirvana", and differentiate it from the Nirvana attained by arhats.
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