Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:09 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:49 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:10 am

none of them wants to teach...
Officially we do not know it at all.
Officially we dont know, but unofficially we know, that Yeshi "dont want to have anything to do with this tibetan folklore". Anyway, if they wanted to succed their father, they would be teaching already for some time when Rinpoche was canceling His schedule due to His condition. That was the right time for them to stand up.
Sure. My point, however, was that the official channels of communication do not deliver -- and deliver they should.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
florin
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by florin »

Apparently there are three people who Rinpoche gave permission to transmit dzogchen:his son, his daughter and a guy in China.
A person i met recently, who had some first hand information, mentioned that he heard Rinpoche’s daughter saying that she will be happy to give transmission in the future but only after she has taken care of her children’s education and their upbringing.
User avatar
DechenDave
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:25 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by DechenDave »

florin wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:22 pm Apparently there are three people who Rinpoche gave permission to transmit dzogchen:his son, his daughter and a guy in China.
A person i met recently, who had some first hand information, mentioned that he heard Rinpoche’s daughter saying that she will be happy to give transmission in the future but only after she has taken care of her children’s education and their upbringing.
So.. anyone know what the gent in China is thinking?
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

florin wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:22 pmA person i met recently, who had some first hand information, mentioned that he heard Rinpoche’s daughter saying that she will be happy to give transmission in the future but only after she has taken care of her children’s education and their upbringing.
Good news, if true. But -- why those running things now will not let us officially know this is the case?
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 2099
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Vasana »

I think patience is important here. When the year of mourning was suggested it was highlighted that periods of mourning are traditionally much longer.

As for the future of transmission, there could be a number of conditions at play. It's a big responsibility to take on from any one who has the capacity to do so. Perhaps they are waiting for the right indications, signs or circumstances in their private lives or own practice.

I think we are operating under a very different time-scale compared to how these matters would usually continue. Is transmission usually an instant relay rally? How many thousands of people have received transmission and a connection to the Longsal teachings and is this number at all usual? That's a genuine question and one I don't know the answer for but I do know that we are the extremely fortunate ones. We have something to work with and our own participation and ongoing support of the community will undoubtedly serve as a supporting condition for whatever we would want to see happen in the future.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying
dharmafootsteps
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:57 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Vasana wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:39 pm I think patience is important here. When the year of mourning was suggested it was highlighted that periods of mourning are traditionally much longer.

As for the future of transmission, there could be a number of conditions at play. It's a big responsibility to take on from any one who has the capacity to do so. Perhaps they are waiting for the right indications, signs or circumstances in their private lives or own practice.

I think we are operating under a very different time-scale compared to how these matters would usually continue. Is transmission usually an instant relay rally? How many thousands of people have received transmission and a connection to the Longsal teachings and is this number at all usual? That's a genuine question and one I don't know the answer for but I do know that we are the extremely fortunate ones. We have something to work with and our own participation and ongoing support of the community will undoubtedly serve as a supporting condition for whatever we would want to see happen in the future.
Thank you for some positivity and measured perspective, this thread needs some right now.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 11122
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

“dharmafootsteps” wrote:
Thank you for some positivity and measured perspective, this thread needs some right now.
I think it also needs realism. Simply saying things will take care of themselves is a bit of a deflective answer, it’s getting exasperating hearing it. These are valid concerns being brought up.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
florin
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by florin »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:21 pm
florin wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:22 pmA person i met recently, who had some first hand information, mentioned that he heard Rinpoche’s daughter saying that she will be happy to give transmission in the future but only after she has taken care of her children’s education and their upbringing.
Good news, if true. But -- why those running things now will not let us officially know this is the case?
Going by what she said, I dont think this info about the daughter is that relevant at this present moment. It is something that is relevant for the future, whenever that may be. So beyond this, I don’t think is that helpful to speculate. But i think in some circles the fact that Yeshi and his sister have the capacity and authorisation to transmit was well known for a number of years.
User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 2099
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Vasana »

Understandable frustration JD, but what more can we realistically do? If there are no official statements all we really can do is continue as best we can. Not deflecting that things will need to be addressed at some point but we can't make things happen sooner than they will.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying
florin
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by florin »

DechenDave wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:13 pm
florin wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:22 pm Apparently there are three people who Rinpoche gave permission to transmit dzogchen:his son, his daughter and a guy in China.
A person i met recently, who had some first hand information, mentioned that he heard Rinpoche’s daughter saying that she will be happy to give transmission in the future but only after she has taken care of her children’s education and their upbringing.
So.. anyone know what the gent in China is thinking?
In the same conversation i have been told that before Rinpoche gave him permission to transmit he was a monk and was the head of a monastery or so I remember.
But there was a mention of him and a short discussion of his credentials here somewhere about a year ago i think.
Other than that I don’t know who he is or what his plans are.
User avatar
Tongnyid Dorje
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

I heard that chinese sangha asked Changchub Dorjes grandgrand son or nephew and came under his guidence, breaking up from IDC. :shrug:
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:51 pm I heard that chinese sangha asked Changchub Dorjes grandgrand son or nephew and came under his guidence, breaking up from IDC. :shrug:
I know the first part of the rumour but the other half is news to me :jawdrop: So we have now a splinter group that rejects the authority of the IDG -- or no longer considers itself a part of the DC?
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
User avatar
weitsicht
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:47 pm
Location: Right Here and Now

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by weitsicht »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:55 pm
“dharmafootsteps” wrote:
Thank you for some positivity and measured perspective, this thread needs some right now.
I think it also needs realism. Simply saying things will take care of themselves is a bit of a deflective answer, it’s getting exasperating hearing it. These are valid concerns being brought up.
with the humble capacity of outspokenness I possess, I addressed already 2 dzogchen masters with the issue that the dzogchen is dying out in the west. I am afraid to tell you JD, that "things will take care of themselves" both times were exactly the answer...
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
User avatar
Tongnyid Dorje
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:28 pm
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:51 pm I heard that chinese sangha asked Changchub Dorjes grandgrand son or nephew and came under his guidence, breaking up from IDC. :shrug:
I know the first part of the rumour but the other half is news to me :jawdrop: So we have now a splinter group that rejects the authority of the IDG -- or no longer considers itself a part of the DC?
What I said is all what I know, no details to that.
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

weitsicht wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:48 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:55 pm
“dharmafootsteps” wrote:
Thank you for some positivity and measured perspective, this thread needs some right now.
I think it also needs realism. Simply saying things will take care of themselves is a bit of a deflective answer, it’s getting exasperating hearing it. These are valid concerns being brought up.
with the humble capacity of outspokenness I possess, I addressed already 2 dzogchen masters with the issue that the dzogchen is dying out in the west. I am afraid to tell you JD, that "things will take care of themselves" both times were exactly the answer...
Oh sure. Only we are not discussing the future of Dzogchen in the West here. We are thinking about the future of the DC worldwide.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
User avatar
Tongnyid Dorje
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

I dont think dzogchen teachings are in decline in the west. Our concerns are for DC as organization and its future without ChNNR. Plenty teachers and Rinpoches are teaching dzogchen but in the traditional context.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 11122
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

weitsicht wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:48 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:55 pm
“dharmafootsteps” wrote:
Thank you for some positivity and measured perspective, this thread needs some right now.
I think it also needs realism. Simply saying things will take care of themselves is a bit of a deflective answer, it’s getting exasperating hearing it. These are valid concerns being brought up.
with the humble capacity of outspokenness I possess, I addressed already 2 dzogchen masters with the issue that the dzogchen is dying out in the west. I am afraid to tell you JD, that "things will take care of themselves" both times were exactly the answer...
WRT to the DC, bluntly we aren't talking about Dzogchen masters anymore. We are talking about people responsible for running/coordinating an organization, it's about practical abilities to communicate, etc. (or lack thereof) So my comment was directed towards those practical matters, not larger issues of Dzogchen transmission.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
climb-up
Posts: 644
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

As something of an outsider to the DC (I mean, I’m a member and have been to my local ling; but primarily due to circumstance my occasional posts here are my closest to DC organizational participation);
The one year of silence seemed kind of like a way of giving enough time to figure out the next step, and now that that year is up it appears that there isn’t one.
That’s just how it seems, obviously I could be very wrong. I had assumed that ChNN had a plan, and at least it seems now that either he did not or his plan didn’t work out due to circumstance.

Of course there is a lot of Dzogchen being taught in the west, that isn’t in danger; but the DC organization certainly is.
From my understanding there are most certainly members of the DC who would be qualified to give lung; and there are authorized lamas in the DC, so they would have the qualification to give DI (I am aware those are potentially somewhat controversial statements, but I believe I’m correct). But the question would be wether or not anyone of those would be both be able to be accept by all, or a majority, or the DC organization (seems very politically tricky) and also be willing to step into a ridiculously high-pressure/high-work/low-worldly-reward position in an organization that was built around someone else’s capacities and preferences.
It definitely seems possible that this could happen, but it seems like it requires a lot of circumstances to align just-so.
User avatar
Tongnyid Dorje
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Im not aware of any authorizide lamas in DC nor anyone besides Rinpoches children. Could you elaborate on this point a bit, please? sounds interresting.
climb-up
Posts: 644
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:26 pm Im not aware of any authorizide lamas in DC nor anyone besides Rinpoches children. Could you elaborate on this point a bit, please? sounds interresting.
I may not have been as clear as I meant to be.
I mean people who are authorized as lamas who are also DC members; not that they were authorized as lamas IN the DC.
I don’t know if they’re currently active, but Malcolm Smith and Tsultrim Allione were (are?) both DC members and are qualified to give DI.
I believe (and apparently this is controversial, but I remember hearing Rinpoche say it) doing a three roots retreat succefully (having signs) qualifies one to give lung.
BUT, of course, lung is contingent on having received DI.
Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”