Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

climb-up wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:10 pm
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:26 pm Im not aware of any authorizide lamas in DC nor anyone besides Rinpoches children. Could you elaborate on this point a bit, please? sounds interresting.
I may not have been as clear as I meant to be.
I mean people who are authorized as lamas who are also DC members; not that they were authorized as lamas IN the DC.
I don’t know if they’re currently active, but Malcolm Smith and Tsultrim Allione were (are?) both DC members and are qualified to give DI.
I believe (and apparently this is controversial, but I remember hearing Rinpoche say it) doing a three roots retreat succefully (having signs) qualifies one to give lung.
BUT, of course, lung is contingent on having received DI.
There aren’t universally-accepted rules for who can give a lung of a text/practice. Conceivably anyone who has received a reading transmission can give that transmission. But the critical issue here is who holds those complete transmissions and empowerments of the Longsal terma and the other termas that ChNNr held - he held various ones from people like Changchub Dorje, Ayu Khandro etc. Only people who have received all the reading transmissions can actually pass on those teachings, and they are very extensive. Also some of them require actual empowerments, not just direct introduction and a lung - which would require that someone had received those, done the necessary retreat practices, etc.

Finding someone who can give direct introduction is only a small part of preserving ChNNr’s teachings. I’m worried about the rest.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

PeterC wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:55 am ...the critical issue here is who holds those complete transmissions and empowerments of the Longsal terma and the other termas that ChNNr held - he held various ones from people like Changchub Dorje, Ayu Khandro etc. Only people who have received all the reading transmissions can actually pass on those teachings, and they are very extensive. Also some of them require actual empowerments, not just direct introduction and a lung - which would require that someone had received those, done the necessary retreat practices, etc.

Finding someone who can give direct introduction is only a small part of preserving ChNNr’s teachings. I’m worried about the rest.
Ah, I see what you mean. Well put.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:55 amBut the critical issue here is who holds those complete transmissions and empowerments of the Longsal terma and the other termas that ChNNr held - he held various ones from people like Changchub Dorje, Ayu Khandro etc. Only people who have received all the reading transmissions can actually pass on those teachings, and they are very extensive. Also some of them require actual empowerments, not just direct introduction and a lung - which would require that someone had received those, done the necessary retreat practices, etc.
There are rumours -- always rumours -- that there was a lama from Nepal/China (the story comes in many versions. China is more limerick-friendly...) who came to Merigar a few years ago and received some/many teachings and wangs from Rinpoche. Rinpoche is also said to have given extensive teachings/wangs to at least one lama in India/Nepal in the 1990s. No details whatsoever, and I have no idea whether any of this actually happened.

If the Yuchen story is true, that would be our best hope. I would really love to believe that at least the Longsal transmission will go on. Ayu Khandro and Jangchub Dorje had other students who may well have been authorised to pass their termas on. Rinpoche's Longsal is one and only, uniquely his, and now as rare as hens' teeth.

The SMS programme is also clearly over. Even if someone was found who could give transmission for levels 1-4, the other levels were never ever transmitted (actually, Rinpoche said in January 2018 that only level 5 had been prepared to be transmitted, and even that was to have been changed since he intended to refashion the whole path into 5 levels, 3 for Semde, one for Longde and one for Mennagde). There was a future. Now all is past.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:58 am There are rumours -- always rumours -- that there was a lama from Nepal/China (the story comes in many versions. China is more limerick-friendly...) who came to Merigar a few years ago and received some/many teachings and wangs from Rinpoche.
There once was a Lama from Sichuan
Who excelled in Semdzin and Rushen
He received the Longsal Ati
From White A to Ekajati
Who knows, some day he may pass it on.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

:heart: Extra points for avoiding the unavoidable (the lewd rhyme, that is)
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by pemachophel »

It's a basic human trait that we tend to ignore the reality of impermanence. However, I have the feeling that this degenerate age is fast winding down. Maybe the reason the Maestro did not (at least seemingly so far) leave a game-plan for the continuation of the DC is that He foresaw the immanent extinction or at least the disappearance of a large portion of humanity. Maybe that's why He spread the Dharma so widely even though He was sometimes criticized for this.

Just a thought.

(Sorry. Always dangerous when I have a few extra minutes in my schedule.)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik »

Or perhaps in the not too distant future a Lama will receive a unifying Longsal terma from ChNN through lucid dreaming, so no successor is needed.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sādhaka »

Pemachopel,

Whoah everything about your post is very synchronistic; from the time (at least the time I saw before I logged in, so not based on my time zone) and date of your post, to what you wrote in it. But I don’t think many here would find it interesting, so I’ll spare them (but if you want to know, then PM me).

Anyhow, my question based on your post, is, then why did Chögyal Rinpoche put so much time & effort into building a Dzogchen Community worldwide headquarters in Tenerife, near the end of his life?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

pemachophel wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:40 pm It's a basic human trait that we tend to ignore the reality of impermanence. However, I have the feeling that this degenerate age is fast winding down. Maybe the reason the Maestro did not (at least seemingly so far) leave a game-plan for the continuation of the DC is that He foresaw the immanent extinction or at least the disappearance of a large portion of humanity. Maybe that's why He spread the Dharma so widely even though He was sometimes criticized for this.

Just a thought.

(Sorry. Always dangerous when I have a few extra minutes in my schedule.)
So as to make it a tad more palatable, the grim thought in verse:

In Kham was born our precious Master
Whose third eye foresaw a disaster.
He gave teachings to all,
John Ringo George Paul,
The end coming faster and faster.

Witticisms aside, it is a thought I keep coming back to.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Mantrik wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:09 pm Or perhaps in the not too distant future a Lama will receive a unifying Longsal terma from ChNN through lucid dreaming, so no successor is needed.
I was just thinking of that last night too.
The teachings exist still not only with those humans who received them, but with the Dakinis. They won’t be lost regardless of the state of the DC, and there is no reason to think that ChNN won’t have left a mind terma as you say, or simply give someone a new teaching in a vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

I kinda believe that in this situation it is best to paraphrase what Garchen Rinpoche said few months back: leave debates and worrying about the future and "purity" of the lineage to the lineage holders and just practice to the best of your ability.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

khemmis wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:19 pm This one might be a silly question (or maybe not).

If I meditate and my cats are present in the same room and (like in Thun) I invoke The Eight Classes, is it possible that my cats could receive provocations from malicious beings?
ime animals should be out.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

i was reading the idc posts. i only have to say that dc ppl lack merits, that's all.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by DechenDave »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:23 am i was reading the idc posts. i only have to say that dc ppl lack merits, that's all.
Eh?
The people posting in this thread lack merit or the DC people in general lack merit?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Miroku wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:32 pmI kinda believe that in this situation it is best to paraphrase what Garchen Rinpoche said few months back: leave debates and worrying about the future and "purity" of the lineage to the lineage holders and just practice to the best of your ability.
It solves part of the problem for me: I can to some limited extent go on as I have -- only to an extent, of course, because I can no longer rely on Maestro's personal advice. But the point is, apart from me and what happens on my cushion, there are others. There is us. We are not solitary practitioners incidentally linked by the same master: we are in this together, and we are, as the name suggests, a community -- which also implies that we are an institution, with all the complications it must entail.

Worrying is pointless, of course (telling people who are worried to stop worrying is at least as useless, though). But assuming that things are fine or that problems will sort themselves out just like that, one only has to wait, so we had better focus on our practice, is not only naive and ignores the seachange that we underwent with Rinpoche's passing, it also fails to address the suffering of many people in the DC.

Many of us (me included) belong to other sanghas, which makes our situation quite different from those who have dedicated themselves solely to the DC. Some of the latter practised under Maestro's guidance for many years -- a few clearly do not have much need for further instructions, but most do. There is much pain.

A note on motivation: Some of us (me included) will belong to the DC no matter what, till the end of the universe or our lives, because of our samaya. We feel, and should feel, responsible for the continuation of the DC -- just as we should strive to make sure it is in good shape.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

DechenDave wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:34 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:23 am i was reading the idc posts. i only have to say that dc ppl lack merits, that's all.
Eh?
The people posting in this thread lack merit or the DC people in general lack merit?
in general.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:10 am Worrying is pointless, of course (telling people who are worried to stop worrying is at least as useless, though). But assuming that things are fine or that problems will sort themselves out just like that, one only has to wait, so we had better focus on our practice, is not only naive and ignores the seachange that we underwent with Rinpoche's passing, it also fails to address the suffering of many people in the DC.
I'm not sure anyone is saying that are they? That's certainly not what I was intending. In fact quite the opposite. I guess the people that think nothing is happening or that people are naively sticking their heads in the sand thinking everything will be fine are on the fringes of the community and don't see how hard everyone is working. As you say we're a community. It's a time to pull together and work together more than ever, as well as practice of course.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:10 am
Miroku wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:32 pmI kinda believe that in this situation it is best to paraphrase what Garchen Rinpoche said few months back: leave debates and worrying about the future and "purity" of the lineage to the lineage holders and just practice to the best of your ability.
It solves part of the problem for me: I can to some limited extent go on as I have -- only to an extent, of course, because I can no longer rely on Maestro's personal advice. But the point is, apart from me and what happens on my cushion, there are others. There is us. We are not solitary practitioners incidentally linked by the same master: we are in this together, and we are, as the name suggests, a community -- which also implies that we are an institution, with all the complications it must entail.

Worrying is pointless, of course (telling people who are worried to stop worrying is at least as useless, though). But assuming that things are fine or that problems will sort themselves out just like that, one only has to wait, so we had better focus on our practice, is not only naive and ignores the seachange that we underwent with Rinpoche's passing, it also fails to address the suffering of many people in the DC.

Many of us (me included) belong to other sanghas, which makes our situation quite different from those who have dedicated themselves solely to the DC. Some of the latter practised under Maestro's guidance for many years -- a few clearly do not have much need for further instructions, but most do. There is much pain.

A note on motivation: Some of us (me included) will belong to the DC no matter what, till the end of the universe or our lives, because of our samaya. We feel, and should feel, responsible for the continuation of the DC -- just as we should strive to make sure it is in good shape.
To clarify myself, we cannot influence who will lead the community. But we can practice and ChNN was quite clear that taking care of community is also part of the practice. We can go to our local lings, support what we can support and take care of our vajra bond with other people.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by SonamTashi »

I'm not a member of DC, so I won't contribute anything beyond this post. But it is often the case that termas are meant only for a specific place and/or time. ChNN certainly spread the teachings far and wide, but perhaps his teachings were only meant for people who could make contact with him in his lifetime?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

SonamTashi wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:40 am I'm not a member of DC, so I won't contribute anything beyond this post. But it is often the case that termas are meant only for a specific place and/or time. ChNN certainly spread the teachings far and wide, but perhaps his teachings were only meant for people who could make contact with him in his lifetime?
Good point. This may have been one of those, though I hope not. It goes to show how we cannot take the survival of teachings for granted. Who knows how much would have been lost but for the efforts of the Rime masters, for example.
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