Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

pawel
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by pawel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 pm

And where did you see the link to that form? What is the planned program?

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:09 pm

pawel wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 pm
And where did you see the link to that form? What is the planned program?
I read Italian so I can tell you that you sign an NDA and promise to not disclose the program even afterward. It is only for people that haven't got transmission from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:12 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:09 pm
pawel wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 pm
And where did you see the link to that form? What is the planned program?
I read Italian so I can tell you that you sign an NDA and promise to not disclose the program even afterward. It is only for people that haven't got transmission from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

/magnus
Makes me really wonder why all these precautions... almost sounds like a test bunch :rolling:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

pawel
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by pawel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:13 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:09 pm
pawel wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 pm
And where did you see the link to that form? What is the planned program?
I read Italian so I can tell you that you sign an NDA and promise to not disclose the program even afterward. It is only for people that haven't got transmission from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

/magnus
Yes, I understood that too, although it's not clear if they only ask about the transmission or they insist one doesn't have it.
What is the 'ask the acharya', by the way? :)

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:51 am

pawel wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:13 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:09 pm
pawel wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 pm
And where did you see the link to that form? What is the planned program?
I read Italian so I can tell you that you sign an NDA and promise to not disclose the program even afterward. It is only for people that haven't got transmission from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

/magnus
Yes, I understood that too, although it's not clear if they only ask about the transmission or they insist one doesn't have it.
What is the 'ask the acharya', by the way? :)
There is only one option, that you haven't received transmission. Ask the acharya is Malcolms facebook group.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:09 am

Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:12 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:09 pm
pawel wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 pm
And where did you see the link to that form? What is the planned program?
I read Italian so I can tell you that you sign an NDA and promise to not disclose the program even afterward. It is only for people that haven't got transmission from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

/magnus
Makes me really wonder why all these precautions... almost sounds like a test bunch :rolling:
Maybe because the sangha has a tendency to querrel with each other and make a big deal about little thinga thay are different from what they want or expect.

Just my guess tho

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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:19 am

heart wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:09 pm
pawel wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 pm
And where did you see the link to that form? What is the planned program?
I read Italian so I can tell you that you sign an NDA and promise to not disclose the program even afterward. It is only for people that haven't got transmission from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

/magnus
Not a terrible idea, really. Nothing in a Dzogchen teaching was supposed to be public in the first place

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:27 pm

Tata1 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:09 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:12 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:09 pm


I read Italian so I can tell you that you sign an NDA and promise to not disclose the program even afterward. It is only for people that haven't got transmission from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

/magnus
Makes me really wonder why all these precautions... almost sounds like a test bunch :rolling:
Maybe because the sangha has a tendency to querrel with each other and make a big deal about little thinga thay are different from what they want or expect.

Just my guess tho
I second this guess.
People around the world speculating and having expectations that Yeshi do things exactly like is father is not only disruptive, it's really unfair to Yeshi and his family.
Rinpoche died. There could never be a replacement for him. He is irreplaceable. If Yeshi is going to help lead the community the sangha has to let him do it on his own terms.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Hansei
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Hansei » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:13 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:27 pm
Tata1 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:09 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:12 pm


Makes me really wonder why all these precautions... almost sounds like a test bunch :rolling:
Maybe because the sangha has a tendency to querrel with each other and make a big deal about little thinga thay are different from what they want or expect.

Just my guess tho
I second this guess.
People around the world speculating and having expectations that Yeshi do things exactly like is father is not only disruptive, it's really unfair to Yeshi and his family.
Rinpoche died. There could never be a replacement for him. He is irreplaceable. If Yeshi is going to help lead the community the sangha has to let him do it on his own terms.
:good:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by florin » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:41 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:27 pm
Tata1 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:09 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:12 pm


Makes me really wonder why all these precautions... almost sounds like a test bunch :rolling:
Maybe because the sangha has a tendency to querrel with each other and make a big deal about little thinga thay are different from what they want or expect.

Just my guess tho
I second this guess.
People around the world speculating and having expectations that Yeshi do things exactly like is father is not only disruptive, it's really unfair to Yeshi and his family.
Rinpoche died. There could never be a replacement for him. He is irreplaceable. If Yeshi is going to help lead the community the sangha has to let him do it on his own terms.
Yeshi leading the community is not what people are questioning.
This is not what the event is about.
He is giving transmission and heads are spinning about how he is going to do it and about all the precautionary steps he is taking.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:01 pm

I have to say, it is getting exhausting seeing people basically say to shut up any time anyone brings up something questioning the DC's direction.

The fact is that Rinpoche is no longer running the DC. There appear to be a few different camps, I imagine each one claims they are carrying Rinpoche's vision, but from an outside perspective (someone like me who is a "distance member", with no real connection to a local far or ling), there appears to be a real...lack of coherence. I don't think people are just being crazy with their concerns.

Without belaboring the point, or being too negative (as surely the fact that we all had transmission from Rinpoche is enough cause for joy), I think it's fair to have some serious ambivalence and concern for what we are seeing, aren't seeing, etc. without being admonished any time we bring something up. I have a fair amount of experience in another Dharma organization - of which I am also a "meatspace" member, I am not just making up concerns, and I don't think anyone else is either.

So, let's try to have some equanimity with this conversation on both sides. We can bring up issues or concerns without being gossipy or controversial, and we can affirm our commitment to the teachings and the DC without being jingoistic or gaslighting legitimate concerns when they come up, can't we?
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:14 pm

florin wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:41 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:27 pm
Tata1 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:09 am


Maybe because the sangha has a tendency to querrel with each other and make a big deal about little thinga thay are different from what they want or expect.

Just my guess tho
I second this guess.
People around the world speculating and having expectations that Yeshi do things exactly like is father is not only disruptive, it's really unfair to Yeshi and his family.
Rinpoche died. There could never be a replacement for him. He is irreplaceable. If Yeshi is going to help lead the community the sangha has to let him do it on his own terms.
Yeshi leading the community is not what people are questioning.
This is not what the event is about.
He is giving transmission and heads are spinning about how he is going to do it and about all the precautionary steps he is taking.
If he is giving transmission officially in the DC that is leading the community.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:25 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:01 pm
I have to say, it is getting exhausting seeing people basically say to shut up any time anyone brings up something questioning the DC's direction.

The fact is that Rinpoche is no longer running the DC. There appear to be a few different camps, I imagine each one claims they are carrying Rinpoche's vision, but from an outside perspective (someone like me who is a "distance member", with no real connection to a local far or ling), there appears to be a real...lack of coherence. I don't think people are just being crazy with their concerns.

Without belaboring the point, or being too negative (as surely the fact that we all had transmission from Rinpoche is enough cause for joy), I think it's fair to have some serious ambivalence and concern for what we are seeing, aren't seeing, etc. without being admonished any time we bring something up. I have a fair amount of experience in another Dharma organization - of which I am also a "meatspace" member, I am not just making up concerns, and I don't think anyone else is either.

So, let's try to have some equanimity with this conversation on both sides. We can bring up issues or concerns without being gossipy or controversial, and we can affirm our commitment to the teachings and the DC without being jingoistic or gaslighting legitimate concerns when they come up, can't we?
:twothumbsup:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:34 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:14 pm
florin wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:41 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:27 pm

I second this guess.
People around the world speculating and having expectations that Yeshi do things exactly like is father is not only disruptive, it's really unfair to Yeshi and his family.
Rinpoche died. There could never be a replacement for him. He is irreplaceable. If Yeshi is going to help lead the community the sangha has to let him do it on his own terms.
Yeshi leading the community is not what people are questioning.
This is not what the event is about.
He is giving transmission and heads are spinning about how he is going to do it and about all the precautionary steps he is taking.
If he is giving transmission officially in the DC that is leading the community.
I wish it were that simple. The future shape of the DC is very much an open question, and so is Yeshi's role in it. I would very much like him or Yuchen to simply come into their inheritance, take the helm and let things roll, but that seems extremely unlikely at the moment, for now at least. Note how sparse the event's description is, and how carefully worded.

@Johnny Dangerous: :good:
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

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If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by florin » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:34 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:01 pm
I have to say, it is getting exhausting seeing people basically say to shut up any time anyone brings up something questioning the DC's direction.

The fact is that Rinpoche is no longer running the DC. There appear to be a few different camps, I imagine each one claims they are carrying Rinpoche's vision, but from an outside perspective (someone like me who is a "distance member", with no real connection to a local far or ling), there appears to be a real...lack of coherence. I don't think people are just being crazy with their concerns.

Without belaboring the point, or being too negative (as surely the fact that we all had transmission from Rinpoche is enough cause for joy), I think it's fair to have some serious ambivalence and concern for what we are seeing, aren't seeing, etc. without being admonished any time we bring something up. I have a fair amount of experience in another Dharma organization - of which I am also a "meatspace" member, I am not just making up concerns, and I don't think anyone else is either.

So, let's try to have some equanimity with this conversation on both sides. We can bring up issues or concerns without being gossipy or controversial, and we can affirm our commitment to the teachings and the DC without being jingoistic or gaslighting legitimate concerns when they come up, can't we?
I don’t know if your post is aimed at me or Josef or others but i do, like many others, question the curious way this event came to be known and why is happening the way is happening.
What does it mean, why is the event not publicly listed, why is it happening on the DC premises, why the unusual precautionary steps, why, why, why,.....?
But from the way this event was publicised to assuming somehow that this means that Yeshi is the new head of DC is a long stretch in my opinion. I don’t see how these two can or are connected, yet.... :smile:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:41 pm

florin wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:34 pm
i do, like many others, question the curious way this event came to be known and why is happening the way is happening.
What does it mean, why is the event not publicly listed, why is it happening on the DC premises, why the unusual precautionary steps, why, why, why,.....?
There will be an official announcement, that much I know (and it is official even though not exactly fully public). As far as other concerns of yours go, I share them and cannot be of any help, alas.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:42 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:01 pm
I have to say, it is getting exhausting seeing people basically say to shut up any time anyone brings up something questioning the DC's direction.

The fact is that Rinpoche is no longer running the DC. There appear to be a few different camps, I imagine each one claims they are carrying Rinpoche's vision, but from an outside perspective (someone like me who is a "distance member", with no real connection to a local far or ling), there appears to be a real...lack of coherence. I don't think people are just being crazy with their concerns.

Without belaboring the point, or being too negative (as surely the fact that we all had transmission from Rinpoche is enough cause for joy), I think it's fair to have some serious ambivalence and concern for what we are seeing, aren't seeing, etc. without being admonished any time we bring something up. I have a fair amount of experience in another Dharma organization - of which I am also a "meatspace" member, I am not just making up concerns, and I don't think anyone else is either.

So, let's try to have some equanimity with this conversation on both sides. We can bring up issues or concerns without being gossipy or controversial, and we can affirm our commitment to the teachings and the DC without being jingoistic or gaslighting legitimate concerns when they come up, can't we?
I dont really see anything wrong with talking about it. My opinion is that we should relax and let Yeshi manifest naturally and without expectations or comparisons to his father.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:47 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:42 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:01 pm
I have to say, it is getting exhausting seeing people basically say to shut up any time anyone brings up something questioning the DC's direction.

The fact is that Rinpoche is no longer running the DC. There appear to be a few different camps, I imagine each one claims they are carrying Rinpoche's vision, but from an outside perspective (someone like me who is a "distance member", with no real connection to a local far or ling), there appears to be a real...lack of coherence. I don't think people are just being crazy with their concerns.

Without belaboring the point, or being too negative (as surely the fact that we all had transmission from Rinpoche is enough cause for joy), I think it's fair to have some serious ambivalence and concern for what we are seeing, aren't seeing, etc. without being admonished any time we bring something up. I have a fair amount of experience in another Dharma organization - of which I am also a "meatspace" member, I am not just making up concerns, and I don't think anyone else is either.

So, let's try to have some equanimity with this conversation on both sides. We can bring up issues or concerns without being gossipy or controversial, and we can affirm our commitment to the teachings and the DC without being jingoistic or gaslighting legitimate concerns when they come up, can't we?
I dont really see anything wrong with talking about it. My opinion is that we should relax and let Yeshi manifest naturally and without expectations or comparisons to his father.
That's fair. It sounds like most of the concern is surrounding the organizational aspects of this DI happening, rather than comparing Yeshi to his father. Like everyone, I'm just waiting to see what happens.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:53 pm

Some DC folk will be content with ChNN's transmission and teachings and not really bother about Yeshi.

Some new people will accept Yeshi and use the transmission to access ChNN's practices too.

Some may only follow Yeshi, but that does not seem to be on offer.

For the time being, though, it does seem that he is not offering to lead those who had transmission from ChNN.

Therefore talk of him leading the whole DC community is at best way too early to be meaningful.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by DechenDave » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:42 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:53 pm


For the time being, though, it does seem that he is not offering to lead those who had transmission from ChNN.

Therefore talk of him leading the whole DC community is at best way too early to be meaningful.
I agree it’s too early to speculate meaningfully about Yeshi’s plans, but I don’t know if I would characterize the restrictions on this DI as not offering to lead Rinpoche’s existing students.
The restriction has 2 obvious organizational benefits: 1) it’s an in-person DI. If they allow a flood of old students who already have the transmission to crowd the venue, the new ones might get excluded -just based on physical space alone. 2) This allows them to forecast potential new memberships more accurately.

Why they wouldn't broadcast it and extend the DI to anyone, usung the same application criteria and issue passwords to view the broadcast is unclear to me. Maybe it’s a trial run. Maybe Yeshi doesn't want to webcast transmission going forward. We shall find out eventually I imagine.

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