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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:49 pm
by kalden yungdrung
Namdrol wrote:
If you are aware of the basis as a something, then you immediately fall into samsara. This is the problem with using the term awareness for rig pa.


Tashi delek, :)

- If Awareness of the Natural State is seen, with a non-egocentric mind, then this does belong to Fruition Rigpa. Fruition Rigpa is Awareness that has had a direct and stable experience of Emptiness.

- The mind of karma has an ego-centric mind, this does belong to path Rigpa. Path Rigpa has a mind which has intellectually understood emptiness and here does Rigpa mean, Inteligence.

Here is for me clear that Rigpa can be understood with the inteligence and the related knowledge OR be experienced which means to be Aware of the Natural State.
Aware of that Natural State is not seeing that State as done with object and subject. So here is hardly seen a memory based on the Alaya.

One special thing of the Natural State is that the Wisdom is self-emanating and is not caused like we know with an object and subject.
Emptiness is like we should know a not born case. So it is always without interruption there, but how do we experience that Awareness which is Yermed with Emptiness. Is it intelectual Rigpa or Awareness Rigpa?

I can imagin myself that intelectual Rigpa can never be Aware or experience the lights of the 4 / 6 Lamps..........



Best wishes
KY

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:57 pm
by Malcolm
The problem is that you and mudra do not fully understand what term "awareness" really means in English. So therefore, you are stuck on an obsolete translation.

So, there is no point in further discussion.

As long as you understand what rig pa means for yourself, you can call rig pa "george".

N


kalden yungdrung wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
If you are aware of the basis as a something, then you immediately fall into samsara. This is the problem with using the term awareness for rig pa.


Tashi delek, :)

- If Awareness of the Natural State is seen, with a non-egocentric mind, then this does belong to Fruition Rigpa. Fruition Rigpa is Awareness that has had a direct and stable experience of Emptiness.

- The mind of karma has an ego-centric mind, this does belong to path Rigpa. Path Rigpa has a mind which has intellectually understood emptiness and here does Rigpa mean, Inteligence.

Here is for me clear that Rigpa can be understood with the inteligence and the related knowledge OR be experienced which mean to be Aware of the Natural State.
Aware of that Natural State is not seeing that State as done with object and subject.

One special thing of the Natural State is that the Wisdom is self-emanating and is not caused like we know with an object and subject.
Emptiness is like we should know a not born case. So it is always without interruption there, but how do we experience that Awareness which is Yermed with Emptiness. Is it intelectual Rigpa or Awareness Rigpa?

I can imagin myself that intelectual Rigpa can never be Aware or experience the lights of the 4 Lamps..........



Best wishes
KY

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:06 pm
by dakini_boi
Namdrol wrote:

HI Muni:

One of the problems you will face if you insist on translating rigpa as a awareness, is that you will be able to differentiate Dzogchen, etc. from the hindus who are always waffling on about "pure awareness". In reality, "awareness" is a word in english which requires an object.

"Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awareness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know you are not a native English speaker, and so you may not be tuned into usage of English terms. Awareness is always an awareness of something. The basis is not a something. If you are aware of the basis as a something, then you immediately fall into samsara. This is the problem with using the term awareness for rig pa.

Knowledge in the other hand is more ambiguous word in English which actually involves real philosophical issues hence the discipline of epistemology i.e. the study of knowledge qua knowledge.

Rig pa in every sense of the word as it is used in opposition to ma rig pa has to do with knowing as opposed to ignorance. Some have described as the intersection between belief and truth, or "a justified true belief."

In this case, rig pa is justified, because it is based on a personal experience, true, because that experience can be verified by anyone, and a belief because in this case personal experience has lead us to a state personal verification of something that before hand be merely believed.

Anyway, people are free to believe what they wish, justified or not. It is my belief, one I think justified and true, that the English word awareness is not an adequate translation of rig pa almost every case.
:good:

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:13 pm
by kalden yungdrung
Namdrol wrote:
The problem is that you and mudra do not fully understand what term "awareness" really means in English. So therefore, you are stuck on an obsolete translation.
Tashi delek :)

Well i do not see here a problem for ourselves or the ones who make use of Awareness.
We have here two representations, one who use Rigpa for knowledge and one who does make use of Rigpa with Awareness.

Well there are realy a lot of persons who make use of Awareness and of course persons who make use of Rigpa = knowledge.
But the mainpoint is and will be that knowledge never can be Awareness.
We are convinced that the word knowledge has something to do with memory and inteligence and that is all based on the Mind of Karma.

But "we" prefer to call it Awareness instead of "George" :D

Thanks for your attention

Best wishes
KY

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:54 pm
by muni
The problem is not whether there is an understanding of written word awareness but its' so translated in the English books, like By Padmakara translations, internet pages, and so on, is there not just written awareness but with extra's as often "pure" and many more in order to possible give an 'idea' of what is meant. Some give both words as knowledge or awareness.

One cannot blame people to use this when they never saw other translations. Okay, now we will see it.

Knowledge on itself can in my limitations be seen as something to obtain. Awareness alone as well, is as someone is aware of something. But knowledge in the whole of a clarifying sentence, then good!

*Rigpa* or whatever clarifies.

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:14 pm
by kalden yungdrung
Tashi delek, :)

Will write between the lines

Best wishes
KY

muni wrote:The problem is not whether there is an understanding of written word awareness but its' so translated in the English books, like By Padmakara translations, internet pages, and so on,
Well an intelectual understanding (Study) regarding Rigpa is sure welcome to make after / during the meditation sessions a break for reflecting what did happen or which Lamp's visions one did encountered. Known, then there are no more interruptions because of a not "clear" State. So reflecting based on intelectual Rigpa is sure a part of the Path Rigpa and always usefull. But during the Awareness there is no duality like intelect and object.


is there not just written awareness but with extra's as often "pure" and many more in order to possible give an 'idea' of what is meant. Some give both words.
The "idea" is intelectual but sure Awareness has many experiences. Therefore the exact Tibetan words for those experiences of Awareness.


One cannot blame people to use this when they never saw other translations. Okay, now we will see it.
Well Rigpa understood as intelectual or as Awareness seems to be very clear about those two basic / general States of Rigpa experience(s).


Knowledge on itself can in my limitations be seen as something to obtain. Awareness alone as well, is as someone is aware of something. But knowledge in the whole of a clarifying sentence, then good!
In the Natural State is there nothing to obtain because everything there is clear and 100% complete. Nothing is missing there.Awareness is not to be obtained, it is self - emergent.

just *Rigpa* or whatever clarifies.

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:38 pm
by Pero
Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:
Namdrol wrote: Ye shes is normally translated as wisdom or primordial wisdom, but some people these days, following John Pettite and Richad Baron are liking primordial awareness for this.
To me, "wisdom" was always very ambiguous, primordial awareness is much clearer.
It isn't really, since ye shes is not an awareness of any kind, actually.
Well I guess the problem is similar as with rig pa. What translation do you like instead of wisdom?
Is primordial knowledge better?

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:43 pm
by Paul
If you're going to use an english term and not just rigpa, yeshe or whatever, I personally like 'knowledge of the natural state' or 'knowing your own nature'. They're almost vipashyana instructions in themselves.

To me, using 'awareness' makes it seem like there is a thing that is to be found, as if looking hard enough in the mind would find something there like a glowing ball of light or whatever. Especially problematic when we have terms like 'clear light' - as if the mind's some light that is clear, whatever that would mean. There is also the notion of being really aware of things, as if hyper-attentive to experience.

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:52 pm
by kalden yungdrung
Pero wrote:
Well I guess the problem is similar as with rig pa. What translation do you like instead of wisdom?
Is primordial knowledge better?

Tashi delek :)

- Wisdom or Ye shes, would be the Primordial Knowledge beyond discursiveness which endows the utterly pure Mind of the Enlightened One.

- Wisdom of Awareness (Rig pa'i ye shes), would be the inherent Wisdom aspect with which Awareness is naturally endowed. In the 6 lamps its arising within the Expanse of the Base is compared to the sun shining in the middle of the sky

So for me is Wisdom here a correct translation.

Best wishes
KY

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:08 pm
by kalden yungdrung
Hayagriva wrote:If you're going to use an english term and not just rigpa, yeshe or whatever, I personally like 'knowledge of the natural state' or 'knowing your own nature'. They're almost vipashyana instructions in themselves.

To me, using 'awareness' makes it seem like there is a thing that is to be found, as if looking hard enough in the mind would find something there like a glowing ball of light or whatever. Especially problematic when we have terms like 'clear light' - as if the mind's some light that is clear, whatever that would mean. There is also the notion of being really aware of things, as if hyper-attentive to experience.

Tashi delek, :)

Awareness is not to be found, it is there like it was always but one must experience it or meet it, open an door, switch on the light etc.In the beginning ain't no easy at all to get skilled in the different approaches / methods to get into the Natural State. But like i told before in that Awareness is there no separation into 2 or into object and subject.


All dualistic approaches to make something clear what cannot be explained easily by words. When there is Awareness then this is also "personal", because anotherone does not have the same experiences of that natural State. So general seen, Dzoghchen is more / better understandable if one does the practice based on the intelectual study..

Best wishes
KY

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:01 pm
by muni
thank you Kalden Yungdrung. I add a youtube related here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOsQa7sf6FE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:12 pm
by Malcolm
kalden yungdrung wrote: We are convinced that the word knowledge has something to do with memory and inteligence and that is all based on the Mind of Karma.
KY[/color]
rig pa does have something to do with dran pa, actually.

For example, in this passage from the dgongs pa zang thal explanatory tantra:

For both of that, first, because memory (dran pa) arose, there no terror through panic or fear. Since vidyā (rig pa) recognized itself (rang ngo shes), there was no grasping to clarity. Since wisdom arose to vidyā, [12/a] it naturally formed as the dharmakāya. Since the energy of that wisdom arose in the ten directions, the sambhogakāya arose...

But this is not based on karma.

Further, clear memory arises through being moved by wind that rises in the basis that is not established as any sort of entity. Vidya arises without being lifted by the vāyu of conceit. Since it is not moved by the wind that causes movement, objects and mind are not divided into two. Since it is not moved by the karmic vāyu, samsara does not develop.

There is a clear progression in the snying thig texts that describes first memory (dran pa), then rig pa, and in this case, this memory and knowledge is not involved in samsara in any way.

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:13 pm
by Malcolm
Pero wrote:
Well I guess the problem is similar as with rig pa. What translation do you like instead of wisdom?
Is primordial knowledge better?

I prefer wisdom.

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:57 pm
by Pero
kalden yungdrung wrote: So for me is Wisdom here a correct translation.
The rest of your reply had nothing to do with why you think wisdom is correct (which btw, I wasn't even talking about correct or incorrect).
Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:
Well I guess the problem is similar as with rig pa. What translation do you like instead of wisdom?
Is primordial knowledge better?
I prefer wisdom.
Is there any particular reason for that?

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:01 pm
by Sönam
In french I use "savoir total" (total knowledge). Adding "total" to knowledge would desintelectualize knowledge ...

Sönam

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:37 pm
by Pero
Sönam wrote:In french I use "savoir total" (total knowledge). Adding "total" to knowledge would desintelectualize knowledge ...

Sönam
But there is no "total" in rig pa. And I don't think you can "deintellectualize" words. By adding total you just make a new concept.

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:21 pm
by Fa Dao
Isn't that the bottomline right there? It is impossible to put into words that which is beyond words...regardless of the language. At best you will have a finger pointing at the moon...

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:45 pm
by Dechen Norbu
It better point the moon though, not some passing comet. ;)

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:41 am
by kalden yungdrung
:)
kalden yungdrung wrote:
So for me is Wisdom here a correct translation.
Pero wrote:
The rest of your reply had nothing to do with why you think wisdom is correct (which btw, I wasn't even talking about correct or incorrect).

Tashi delek, :)

My reply was the explanation of the word Wisdom in relation to Yeshe regarding Namdrols private opinion, who does agree too for the word Yeshe.
Well if you like it more when i say (like many others), it is also my personal choice, then it is a correct translation (Wisdom), it is ok.

Then am i curious, how you did conclude that the rest of my reply, had nothing to do with why i am thinking that the word Wisdom used here, is correct or not.

Best wishes
KY

Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:18 am
by Pero
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tashi delek, :)

My reply was the explanation of the word Wisdom in relation to Yeshe regarding Namdrols private opinion, who does agree too for the word Yeshe.
Well if you like it more when i say (like many others), it is also my personal choice, then it is a correct translation (Wisdom), it is ok.

Then am i curious, how you did conclude that the rest of my reply, had nothing to do with why i am thinking that the word Wisdom used here, is correct or not.
You just said wisdom is this and that, but not why wisdom is a good word for translating ye shes.