Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4416
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by heart » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:55 pm

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:50 pm
I think Grigoris is talking about Gendun Rinpoches place in France
What’s the name of the place in France that burned down recently?
No, thats Karma Ling, Lama Denuys place. Lots of places in France.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Norwegian
Posts: 1395
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Norwegian » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:50 pm
florin wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:40 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:16 pm


I've heard this before a few times here, and it sounds quite strange. How can it be that they were scarred, the result should have been the opposite.
Let's not cling to " should". These retreats, especially when you are cooped up with 10 or 20 other prople of all kinds of inclinations temperaments and knowledge can be terribly intense and unpleasant. But some fare better than others.
I only did one month of nyunye retreat and by the end of it i felt like i finished a 10 years prison sentence.
How about 4 years?
I did a 3.5 year solitary retreat. It was great. On the other hand, I had a bit of difficulty adjusting to normal life when I got out, but even so, it was very much worth it.
I can't speak about this because I've never done lengthy retreat, but to me the idea of being cramped up in a small place with 10-20 strangers sounds like a nightmare. If I were to do retreat, it'd have to be solitary retreat. Not that I think that'd be a walk in the park, but ... solitary over a group of strangers.

smcj
Posts: 5817
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:18 pm

No, thats Karma Ling, Lama Denuys place. Lots of places in France.
Thanks.
I can't speak about this because I've never done lengthy retreat, but to me the idea of being cramped up in a small place with 10-20 strangers sounds like a nightmare. If I were to do retreat, it'd have to be solitary retreat. Not that I think that'd be a walk in the park, but ... solitary over a group of strangers.
Lama Norlha wouldn’t allow his people to do solitary retreats because without irritating people to provoke your defilements you might believe you’re getting somewhere. With irritation you see how your mind really is.

But I get where you’re coming from. I’ve had enough people piss me off to know how negative my mind can become already. Not that I anticipate a long retreat. That, plus I could be the one people find irritating—as regular readers of DW well know!
Last edited by smcj on Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:24 pm

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:18 pm

Lama Norlha wouldn’t allow his people to do solitary retreats because without irritating people to provoke your defilements you might believe you’re getting somewhere. With irritation you see how your mind really is.
From personal experience I can tell you that when you are in solitary retreat you can find all kinds of things irritating.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Aryjna » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:29 pm

Isn't there a solitary retreat option for monks, or also lay practitioners, in Europe?

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4416
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by heart » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:24 pm
smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:18 pm

Lama Norlha wouldn’t allow his people to do solitary retreats because without irritating people to provoke your defilements you might believe you’re getting somewhere. With irritation you see how your mind really is.
From personal experience I can tell you that when you are in solitary retreat you can find all kinds of things irritating.
:smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire, England

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:23 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:29 pm
Isn't there a solitary retreat option for monks, or also lay practitioners, in Europe?
I believe Nalanda monastery are setting up retreat cabins in the Pyrenees. And, you can do a short solitary retreat at Land of Joy, the FPMT retreat centre in the UK.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Aryjna » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:51 pm

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:23 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:29 pm
Isn't there a solitary retreat option for monks, or also lay practitioners, in Europe?
I believe Nalanda monastery are setting up retreat cabins in the Pyrenees. And, you can do a short solitary retreat at Land of Joy, the FPMT retreat centre in the UK.
Thanks, I didn't know about the Land of Joy.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:05 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:04 pm
I can't speak about this because I've never done lengthy retreat, but to me the idea of being cramped up in a small place with 10-20 strangers sounds like a nightmare.

They wouldn't be strangers for long. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire, England

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:12 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:51 pm
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:23 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:29 pm
Isn't there a solitary retreat option for monks, or also lay practitioners, in Europe?
I believe Nalanda monastery are setting up retreat cabins in the Pyrenees. And, you can do a short solitary retreat at Land of Joy, the FPMT retreat centre in the UK.
Thanks, I didn't know about the Land of Joy.
It's a lovely place, you can only really do solitary retreat in December because the schedule is busy at the moment, although as the centre grows it will have more accommodation space allowing for more individual retreats.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:35 am

florin wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:08 pm
This could be Chanteloube, a place connected with Dilgo Kyentse R.
No. It is a Karma Kagyu retreat center associated with Karmapa Thaye Trinley Dorje called Dhagpo Kagyu Ling. It had been pumping out top notch practitioners and lama since it's founding in 1975 under the direction of Gendeun Rinpoche (who was sent to France by the 16th Karmpa).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

amanitamusc
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:44 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:35 am
florin wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:08 pm
This could be Chanteloube, a place connected with Dilgo Kyentse R.
No. It is a Karma Kagyu retreat center associated with Karmapa Thaye Trinley Dorje called Dhagpo Kagyu Ling. It had been pumping out top notch practitioners and lama since it's founding in 1975 under the direction of Gendeun Rinpoche (who was sent to France by the 16th Karmpa).
Who in particular?

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6053
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by kirtu » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:44 am

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:18 pm
Norwegian wrote: I can't speak about this because I've never done lengthy retreat, but to me the idea of being cramped up in a small place with 10-20 strangers sounds like a nightmare. If I were to do retreat, it'd have to be solitary retreat. Not that I think that'd be a walk in the park, but ... solitary over a group of strangers.
Lama Norlha wouldn’t allow his people to do solitary retreats because without irritating people to provoke your defilements you might believe you’re getting somewhere. With irritation you see how your mind really is.
Basically Westerners are very anti-social iwhen in tight places where they can't really get away from each other.

"Lazy Lama" is filmed in the context of a 3 year retreat. 50% of the retreatants dropped out. However the reactions that those who remained had in the post-retreat interview speaks volumes.



Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:47 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:44 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:35 am
florin wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:08 pm
This could be Chanteloube, a place connected with Dilgo Kyentse R.
No. It is a Karma Kagyu retreat center associated with Karmapa Thaye Trinley Dorje called Dhagpo Kagyu Ling. It had been pumping out top notch practitioners and lama since it's founding in 1975 under the direction of Gendeun Rinpoche (who was sent to France by the 16th Karmpa).
Who in particular?
Well, apart from my friend Lama Joseph who is currently completing a 12 year, there is my friend Lama Maria who completed 9 years, my friend Lama Daphne who also completed 9 years and is a vow holding bhikshuni living in a mountain retreat center in northern Greece. These are just (part of) the Greek Sangha that graduated from the specific retreat center. I could go on, but it would be rather boring...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:10 am

kirtu wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:44 am
smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:18 pm
Norwegian wrote: I can't speak about this because I've never done lengthy retreat, but to me the idea of being cramped up in a small place with 10-20 strangers sounds like a nightmare. If I were to do retreat, it'd have to be solitary retreat. Not that I think that'd be a walk in the park, but ... solitary over a group of strangers.
Lama Norlha wouldn’t allow his people to do solitary retreats because without irritating people to provoke your defilements you might believe you’re getting somewhere. With irritation you see how your mind really is.
Basically Westerners are very anti-social iwhen in tight places where they can't really get away from each other.

"Lazy Lama" is filmed in the context of a 3 year retreat. 50% of the retreatants dropped out. However the reactions that those who remained had in the post-retreat interview speaks volumes.



Kirt
It looks like they had separate rooms. You cannot really call this significantly more cramped than any other place where there is communal living, like the army, or even a university dorm.

I was getting the impression that people practice and sleep together in a medium sized room in this kind of retreats.

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6053
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by kirtu » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:21 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:10 am
kirtu wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:44 am
smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:18 pm

Lama Norlha wouldn’t allow his people to do solitary retreats because without irritating people to provoke your defilements you might believe you’re getting somewhere. With irritation you see how your mind really is.
Basically Westerners are very anti-social iwhen in tight places where they can't really get away from each other.

"Lazy Lama" is filmed in the context of a 3 year retreat. 50% of the retreatants dropped out. However the reactions that those who remained had in the post-retreat interview speaks volumes.



Kirt
It looks like they had separate rooms. You cannot really call this significantly more cramped than any other place where there is communal living, like the army, or even a university dorm.
And they still couldn't get along! This was part of my point.
I was getting the impression that people practice and sleep together in a medium sized room in this kind of retreats.
That is correct although I have read of Tibetan retreats where people did live in separate (but possibly shared) rooms. I was shocked to see a video from a 3 year nuns retreat in which they were all actually in the same room.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:25 am

kirtu wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:21 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:10 am
kirtu wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:44 am


Basically Westerners are very anti-social iwhen in tight places where they can't really get away from each other.

"Lazy Lama" is filmed in the context of a 3 year retreat. 50% of the retreatants dropped out. However the reactions that those who remained had in the post-retreat interview speaks volumes.



Kirt
It looks like they had separate rooms. You cannot really call this significantly more cramped than any other place where there is communal living, like the army, or even a university dorm.
And they still couldn't get along! This was part of my point.
I was getting the impression that people practice and sleep together in a medium sized room in this kind of retreats.
That is correct although I have read of Tibetan retreats where people did live in separate (but possibly shared) rooms. I was shocked to see a video from a 3 year nuns retreat in which they were all actually in the same room.

Kirt
I think having a separate room would make a retreat of this kind quite comfortable, as far as being annoyed by others goes. Sleeping and practicing in the same room could make it horrible and it is a very big difference, but it depends I suppose, as you will be constantly practicing anyway.

Are there more videos on youtube?

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:04 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:25 am
Sleeping and practicing in the same room...
Sleep? :rolling:

Sleep/Dream yoga is part of the Kagyu curriculim and believe me, when you do Sleep/Dream yoga, you do not sleep! Not like we common folk know sleep.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:19 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:04 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:25 am
Sleeping and practicing in the same room...
Sleep? :rolling:

Sleep/Dream yoga is part of the Kagyu curriculim and believe me, when you do Sleep/Dream yoga, you do not sleep! Not like we common folk know sleep.
Ah yes, looks like this was the case in the retreat in that video, as they only had a meditation box in their rooms. I am mostly trying to understand what can be so horrible in a retreat that will scar someone for life and make them stop practicing.

smcj
Posts: 5817
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by smcj » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:33 pm

Sleep/Dream yoga is part of the Kagyu curriculim and believe me, when you do Sleep/Dream yoga, you do not sleep! Not like we common folk know sleep.
The 6 yogas are taught in the last 6 months of the 3 year retreat. 1 month per yoga.
Ah yes, looks like this was the case in the retreat in that video, as they only had a meditation box in their rooms. I am mostly trying to understand what can be so horrible in a retreat that will scar someone for life and make them stop practicing.
Being confronted by your own karmic (getting sick, etc.), emotional, and mental obscurations can be traumatic. In fact they can increase if you haven’t got Refuge, renunciation and bodhicitta. Or nothing can happen and it’s all just beating your head on a wall. Or you could have a psycho in the room next door. Or you can become the psycho, getting a big head.

Or it can be of benefit.
Last edited by smcj on Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Hansei, javadm, Leif, SkyDragon3 and 70 guests