Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Simon E.
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:56 pm

I knew someone that did the Three Year and a few weeks after coming out beat up his sister in law and was jailed for G.B.H. On release from prison he descended into a kind of drug hell.

No, its not a guarantee of anything except a probable ripening of karma.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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smcj
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by smcj » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:13 pm

The “snake caught in bamboo” analogy comes to mind. The snake has to go up or it can go down. Drug addiction would be one such down.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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weitsicht
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by weitsicht » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:15 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:19 pm
I am mostly trying to understand what can be so horrible in a retreat that will scar someone for life and make them stop practicing.
Ken McLeod told his experience, three years and something retreat also in France. He developed some kind of psychosis. It is also written about this. It is called
http://unfetteredmind.org/revelations-of-ever-present-good/ wrote: Their forced and constricted practice wears them out.
Serious problems develop when reactive energy enters the life channel.
One Lama told me that the first months are the most difficult.
However, if one just accommodates to the new patterns of lifestyle, one also doesn't get very far.

I personally would be very interested in hearing about the rules of wandering meditation.
Last edited by weitsicht on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Aryjna
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:17 pm

All these make sense, as long as the fundamentals are completely missing, which is the main problem as they should not be missing in someone who is doing a three year retreat. If they are not missing, and this can still happen, then the only conclusion can be that it is a gamble, which makes little sense.

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Aryjna
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:24 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:15 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:19 pm
I am mostly trying to understand what can be so horrible in a retreat that will scar someone for life and make them stop practicing.
Ken McLeod told his experience, three years and something retreat also in France. He developed some kind of psychosis. It is also written about this. It is called
http://unfetteredmind.org/revelations-of-ever-present-good/ wrote: Their forced and constricted practice wears them out.
Serious problems develop when reactive energy enters the life channel.
One Lama told me that the first months are the most difficult.
However, if one just accommodates to the new patterns of lifestyle, one also doesn't get very far.
Do you have a link to his writings on the subject? It would be interesting.
I personally would be very interested in heading about the rules of wandering meditation.
Unfortunately I don't think this is possible nowadays.

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Grigoris
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:48 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:19 pm
I am mostly trying to understand what can be so horrible in a retreat that will scar someone for life and make them stop practicing.
The same thing that is horrible outside of the retreat: your mind.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aryjna
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:53 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:48 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:19 pm
I am mostly trying to understand what can be so horrible in a retreat that will scar someone for life and make them stop practicing.
The same thing that is horrible outside of the retreat: your mind.
The problem is that apparently in some cases the retreat makes it worse.

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weitsicht
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by weitsicht » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:09 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:24 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:15 pm

Ken McLeod told his experience, three years and something retreat also in France. He developed some kind of psychosis.
Do you have a link to his writings on the subject? It would be interesting.
I read about it in his book "A trackless path"
He didn't go into much detail much mentioned that it took him like 13 years to recover from it.
Also a Tibetan lama told me that in dark retreat his friend took seeing crows attacking him for so real that he injured himself and lost eyesight.
One has to be brave to walk the path and indeed, it's a lot about preparation and teacher's consultation.
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:24 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:15 pm

I personally would be very interested in hearing about the rules of wandering meditation.
Unfortunately I don't think this is possible nowadays.
Impossible why?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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smcj
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by smcj » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:18 pm

One Lama told me that the first months are the most difficult.
That’s the part where you do NgonDro.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Aryjna
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:22 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:09 pm
Unfortunately I don't think this is possible nowadays.
Impossible why?
To be a wandering mendicant does not seem possible, in most parts of the world at least. Though perhaps it is possible for some.

Miroku
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Miroku » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:27 pm

Seems like one has to have a pretty stable daily practice for few years before attempting prolonged retreat like this. Maybe even have already one or two sets of ngondro done to minimize the problems.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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smcj
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by smcj » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:33 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:27 pm
Seems like one has to have a pretty stable daily practice for few years before attempting prolonged retreat like this. Maybe even have already one or two sets of ngondro done to minimize the problems.
Plus some places, like where I live, have you do the retreat in Tibetan. For me that’s a non-starter.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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heart
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by heart » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:58 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:53 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:48 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:19 pm
I am mostly trying to understand what can be so horrible in a retreat that will scar someone for life and make them stop practicing.
The same thing that is horrible outside of the retreat: your mind.
The problem is that apparently in some cases the retreat makes it worse.
It is true, there are many sad stories about people loosing their minds in retreat.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:09 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:58 pm
It is true, there are many sad stories about people loosing their minds in retreat.

I thought loosing your mind was the whole point? Image
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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heart
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by heart » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:46 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:09 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:58 pm
It is true, there are many sad stories about people loosing their minds in retreat.

I thought loosing your mind was the whole point? Image
:smile: developing a psychosis then. Some just develop a dislike for practice.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:08 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:46 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:09 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:58 pm
It is true, there are many sad stories about people loosing their minds in retreat.

I thought loosing your mind was the whole point? Image
:smile: developing a psychosis then. Some just develop a dislike for practice.

/magnus

Ah. Truly, there is a fine line between losing and loosing.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Matt J
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Matt J » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:21 pm

Sometimes you have to tighten so you don’t fall asleep. 😴 😴 😴
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:08 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:46 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:09 pm



I thought loosing your mind was the whole point? Image
:smile: developing a psychosis then. Some just develop a dislike for practice.

/magnus

Ah. Truly, there is a fine line between losing and loosing.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

Snowbear
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Snowbear » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:50 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:33 pm
Sleep/Dream yoga is part of the Kagyu curriculim and believe me, when you do Sleep/Dream yoga, you do not sleep! Not like we common folk know sleep.
The 6 yogas are taught in the last 6 months of the 3 year retreat. 1 month per yoga.
How did you find out what happens inside a 3 year retreat?

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Josef
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Josef » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:45 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:50 pm
smcj wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:33 pm
Sleep/Dream yoga is part of the Kagyu curriculim and believe me, when you do Sleep/Dream yoga, you do not sleep! Not like we common folk know sleep.
The 6 yogas are taught in the last 6 months of the 3 year retreat. 1 month per yoga.
How did you find out what happens inside a 3 year retreat?
Its not really a secret.
All lineages have a retreat curriculum.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Simon E.
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Re: Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:42 pm

Indeed.

Samye Ling publishes (or used to) a detailed breakdown of what the retreatant could expect during the three years three months three days three minutes.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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