Lazy people should just give up, right?

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LastLegend
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by LastLegend »

padma norbu wrote:
Virgo wrote: This is not a criticism of you padma norbu, or of any one else. And, I suppose I am guilty of this myself to a degree, but I think we tend to see Buddhist practice as always something separate from normal, everyday moments of consciousness, while eating, fixing a bowl of soup, etc. We tend to think Buddhist practice happens when we are on a cushion doing some particular text and/or when we are faced with a certain decisions which urge us to make a choice between being compassionate or not, lying or not, stealing or not, etc. etc. Those are absolutely times of Buddhist practice (sitting on the cushion and when we are faced with those experiences), they are necessary parts of practice, but anytime, anywhere that there is waking consciousness is a time for us to work with as well. For example, I think it was Sariputra that attained Arhatship lying down to go to sleep.

Kevin
Yes, I think part of the problem is that I consider all the hours I've spent chanting a particular mantra and think about the fact that (A) I haven't really noticed any improvement in anything as a result, (B) my mind wanders during chanting and so I think I'm not doing it right and wasting my time, (C) think about the fact that Vajrayana methods include specific visualizations and intentions, which of course seem like they would work on your conscious and subconscious mind by undoing deep habitual patterns related to self and others... while Dzogchen methods say not to think about visualization or relative benefit much at all and that this would actually be more a powerful way to practice (I think) unless you don't have that capacity. So... let's say I'm doing Green Tara. What is the point of remaining in rigpa while chanting her mantra? Why not just remain in rigpa and stare at the wall?

Also, how is there any benefit whatsoever in focusing on twirling mantras, rather than, say, the image of Tara radiating rainbow light all over the place as an extension of her beneficial action? They are both symbolic visualizations, but one is rather meaningless (twirling mantra). It may have secret meaning, but I don't see how that could be revealed by visualizing it for hours upon hours.

You are not improving because you are not willing to let go of worldly attachments. Once you have let go of worldly attachments, you will be full and not lacking.
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mint
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by mint »

LastLegend wrote:You are not improving because you are not willing to let go of worldly attachments. Once you have let go of worldly attachments, you will be full and not lacking.
I thought Vajrayana was precisely for people who have attachment that they have a difficult time giving up? :geek:
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LastLegend
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by LastLegend »

mint wrote:
LastLegend wrote:You are not improving because you are not willing to let go of worldly attachments. Once you have let go of worldly attachments, you will be full and not lacking.
I thought Vajrayana was precisely for people who have attachment that they have a difficult time giving up? :geek:
I don't know anything about that.

But that was just my 2 cents.
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Acchantika
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Acchantika »

mint wrote:
LastLegend wrote:You are not improving because you are not willing to let go of worldly attachments. Once you have let go of worldly attachments, you will be full and not lacking.
I thought Vajrayana was precisely for people who have attachment that they have a difficult time giving up? :geek:
You still have to give up attachments, even in Vajrayana. But:

The problem is not enjoyment; the problem is attachment.” ~ Tilopa

So, non-attachment doesn't mean rejecting, just not clinging.

Just my 2 cents.
...
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padma norbu
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by padma norbu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Really just plain sick of practices that take forever to achieve results.
Just curious...what is your motivation for doing dharma practice? What I mean is, why do you do it?
also, What is the result that you are looking for, and why do you want that result?
Isn't this the path that gives us bigger dongs and lots of money? If not, I've made a terrible mistake.
Silent Bob wrote:
padma norbu wrote: So... let's say I'm doing Green Tara. What is the point of remaining in rigpa while chanting her mantra? Why not just remain in rigpa and stare at the wall?
If, as you suggest, you're able to remain in rigpa for as long as it takes to do the GT sadhana, for uninterrupted minutes, or even as long as it might take an ant to travel the length of your nose, you're a natural and probably don't even need formal practice sessions ;) . Unless of course what you're remaining in isn't rigpa but what Tsoknyi Rinpoche calls "formless dzogchen shamata". You might want to check your experience with a qualified teacher.
Yeah, I remember hearing that story at least twice from Namkhai Norbu about the ant travelling the length of the nose. I believe this refers to perfect and uninterrupted rigpa. Dzogchen pracitioners shoot for a 24/7 practice of awareness. If all they needed were a few seconds while an ant travels the length of your nose, that wouldn't be necessary. Namkhai Norbu has said that when you sing the SOV, you are naturally in the state. Does it take an ant less than 9 minutes (the length of SOV) to travel your nose? I think so.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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padma norbu
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by padma norbu »

LastLegend wrote:You are not improving because you are not willing to let go of worldly attachments. Once you have let go of worldly attachments, you will be full and not lacking.
I don't think anyone is, really. It's against human nature. If I am a desperate clinger, then it's pretty comical since I have lived the majority of my life disinterested in worldly accumulations, power or fame and have actually spent a lot of time as a suicidal person. Probably the only reason I didn't kill myself was coming to believe in reincarnation. Prior to that, I was a self-destructive atheist kid with no belief in God, heaven or hell and thought life was unfair and pointless shit, so I did not want to live to become an old man and die of a painful disease. I thought ODing was much preferred. About the only things I could honestly say I desire in this life are getting drunk and getting laid, neither of which is really that important to me in actuality. I've given up the booze and I don't really try to get laid, either.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Lazy people have a hindrance. Hyped people have a hindrance. We have many hindrances. Otherwise we wouldn't need to practice.

Laziness is a problem until one finds bliss in meditation. Then bliss is a problem if one gets attached to it. We will always find obstacles to overcome. We need to recognize them and then overcome them with the proper methods. Always keep in mind that we are going through the clouds towards the sunny sky which is already there and will always be. Not mattering how many clouds we need to cut through, the sunny sky is still there. :smile:
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padma norbu
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by padma norbu »

Clarence wrote:A lot of your questions are answered in "Beginner's Guide to Tibetan Buddhism" by Bruce Newman.
Name one. I've seen this book, flipped through it. It's not a book about Dzogchen, I'm not a beginner and I'm not interested. If you can name one question of mine that is answered in this book, then maybe I will pick it up. Otherwise, I've read enough beginner books about Tibetan Buddhism.
Last edited by padma norbu on Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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padma norbu
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by padma norbu »

Dechen Norbu wrote:Lazy people have a hindrance. Hyped people have a hindrance. We have many hindrances. Otherwise we wouldn't need to practice.

Laziness is a problem until one finds bliss in meditation. Then bliss is a problem if one gets attached to it. We will always find obstacles to overcome. We need to recognize them and then overcome them with the proper methods. Always keep in mind that we are going through the clouds towards the sunny sky which is already there and will always be. Not mattering how many clouds we need to cut through, the sunny sky is still there. :smile:
Yes. Intellectual understanding isn't the problem for me. Just plain lazy. I'm not sure there's much more that can be said about it. Lazy and stupid, I suppose. What other explanation is there for a person who understands the situation perfectly and simply does not bother to do anything about it? Not bright, definitely lazy. To give you a better idea: I simply can't stand making noises with my mouth, so I really don't like saying mantra or singing SOV. I don't like sitting with my back straight for more than a few minutes and, while I've gotten past this problem multiple many many times and can sit for hours, I just don't like it and don't want to do it. This is after blissful experiences, btw. I think I've gotten lazier after discovering Dzogchen somehow. Wish I knew why.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Just another note. We are lazy when Dharma hasn't yet reached our heart. We should find why and there are many ways to do so. This also has to do with the practitioner propensities, his karma and so on and so forth.
It's difficult in a forum to help someone who is in deep sh1t with his progress. We are all different and under different circumstances and this is why a teacher is important. You talked about kabbalah or something and the quickness of results. Mate, that's sheer fantasy. But you can try it out and discover for yourself. There are no quick results, not mattering the path. These depend on your capacity and then method. Some methods are faster, some are not, but what is more important is which are those more suited to you. It doesn't matter if you go slower, unless you could really go faster, as long as you make progresses. You know why? Because, IMO, many who think they are making progresses are going backwards. Their ego (with a buddhist layer or another) is making progresses really fast. There are indeed some spiritual prodigies who remember their past lives (and it's not just imagination), who complete a cycle and have results in the blink of an eye. Most, however, need to think about Buddhadharma, or whatever path they choose, as agriculture. Each to its day, constant, enough, the feasible. As long as we do this, and this may need a little calibration over the years, we will do fine.
Let me give you my example. I should practice as if my hair was on fire. I am absolutely convinced it is, in fact! But the conviction that reaches my head and the way it touches me deeper dictate my pace. So I do my best, even knowing I should be doing better. But perhaps, if I was doing it, I would burn out. So no, it's clear that I won't reach Buddhahood this life. It's likely that I die without great accomplishments and probably in the next life I won't even find Dharma. But I do the best I can in my situation. I know it could be better, but hey, I have my hindrances that I try to overcome every single day. Still, I fail miserably many, many times, over and over again, but Buddhadharma is like the beacon that shows the way. Faster or slower, it more or less curves, I always walk under that light. Worrying too much won't help, so I do what I can. Over the years, what I can do has been increasing in a very natural process. So I think you may expect the same. :smile:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by deepbluehum »

padma norbu wrote:Really just plain sick of practices that take forever to achieve results.
What results? LOL
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padma norbu
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by padma norbu »

What results, you ask?! LOL, didn't you see my earlier post about longer dongs and lots of money?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Dechen Norbu wrote:Just another note. We are lazy when Dharma hasn't yet reached our heart.
It certainly did at some point. Maybe my heart got bored of it.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by padma norbu »

Dechen Norbu wrote: You talked about kabbalah or something and the quickness of results. Mate, that's sheer fantasy. But you can try it out and discover for yourself.
LOL :rolling:

I have. If sheer fantasy moves shit around in your house and scares your wife and the cats, then my fantasies are pretty damn impressive.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

There are results. Signs that a certain practice is being well succeeded. This vary a lot, but they are there.
Anyway, I emphasize again the relation with a teacher. It must be heart felt. You must really connect with his teachings and then work from there. Don't stress too much, but don't cut yourself too much slack. How? You can discover that with a little study, that probably you already have, and then calibrate it yourself.
Be honest, be diligent, try to solve your problems regarding the practice. Don't wait forever. Do something like witting to your teacher. But first, do some inner searching to see if you don't know the answer already (because usually teachers have busy schedules). Sort it out and act. Don't over complicate. :smile:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

padma norbu wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote: You talked about kabbalah or something and the quickness of results. Mate, that's sheer fantasy. But you can try it out and discover for yourself.
LOL :rolling:

I have. If sheer fantasy moves shit around in your house and scares your wife and the cats, then my fantasies are pretty damn impressive.
Well, I don't see what that has to do with realizing enlightenment...
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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I don't recall ever saying I thought Kabballah was the path to enlightenment. If I believed that, I probably wouldn't have quit. I said that relatively, it is near instantaneous. Results = evidence that something beyond the mundane is happening, not something so subtle you can barely tell. Has Buddhism and Dzogchen made me happier, more content? Sure, I'm lazy and don't really care! Will this attitude lead to enlightenment? Doubtful, but I am a lot more sure of myself and what I believe than I was studying the Kabballah where I was always trying to piece together the information to achieve gnosis. However, when you do a bit of Kabballist ritual, you get a result and you get it immediately. Want to contact a godform? No problem, just do the work with sincere effort. You will make contact. And it doesn't take hours, certainly not days.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

You want "pyrotechnics" or "fireworks"? Excel at Chöd. We will see if you have stomach for that then. :lol:

Really, those "paranormal phenomena" are not the things you should be expecting. You can learn easily to deal with local spirits and all that, some people faster than others, but that's really secondary. Talk with your teacher. Perhaps you have a knack for some sort of rituals, I don't know. But don't let secondary practices lead you astray. If you get impressed by "poltergeist like" phenomena, you will freeze when the real thing comes around if you spend enough time practicing something as simple as shinay for a long time, in retreat conditions. Really Padma, that is not what you should be looking for, in my humble and sincere opinion.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

padma norbu wrote:I don't recall ever saying I thought Kabballah was the path to enlightenment. If I believed that, I probably wouldn't have quit. I said that relatively, it is near instantaneous. Results = evidence that something beyond the mundane is happening, not something so subtle you can barely tell. Has Buddhism and Dzogchen made me happier, more content? Sure, I'm lazy and don't really care! Will this attitude lead to enlightenment? Doubtful, but I am a lot more sure of myself and what I believe than I was studying the Kabballah where I was always trying to piece together the information to achieve gnosis. However, when you do a bit of Kabballist ritual, you get a result and you get it immediately. Want to contact a godform? No problem, just do the work with sincere effort. You will make contact. And it doesn't take hours, certainly not days.
It won't take hour or days if you have proper instruction either. You just need a teacher willing to give it to you. And this raises a shitload of questions. Anyway, I think I said all I wanted about this thread, friend! Hang in there! And again, talk to your teacher (this already starts sounding like a mantra :lol: )

All the best!
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Pero »

padma norbu wrote: Yeah, I remember hearing that story at least twice from Namkhai Norbu about the ant travelling the length of the nose. I believe this refers to perfect and uninterrupted rigpa. Dzogchen pracitioners shoot for a 24/7 practice of awareness. If all they needed were a few seconds while an ant travels the length of your nose, that wouldn't be necessary. Namkhai Norbu has said that when you sing the SOV, you are naturally in the state. Does it take an ant less than 9 minutes (the length of SOV) to travel your nose? I think so.
Careful, singing SoV doesn't necessarily mean you're in the state of contemplation always during it. Or even during a part of it.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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