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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:35 am
by muni
Master-student is often misunderstood. The idea about appearances is easy rejected.

Bodhichitta.

To avoid "people" get discouraged, lose trust, run in idea, in percieving thoughts, to give full opportunity, check experience....to ensure awakening as dream about cannot awaken...

Thinking thought don't know.

*BODHICHITTA*

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:40 pm
by White Lotus
dont know is as natural as know! you cannot ever leave your natural state and so not knowing is only part of the natural state.

how can you attain what comes naturally to you... pointless.

relax!

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:25 pm
by Pastabodhi
Sönam wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
may be it's true, but let's also admit that it's the classical Tibetan approach of "never without a master" ... a bit like "I am an absolute ignorant, ..."

Could we accept that nowadays, with the important existing litterature and the accessibility of open teachings, it could be otherwise?

Sönam
Sure! They call it : new age.
Just a big waste of time.

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:17 pm
by Sönam
Pastabodhi wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
may be it's true, but let's also admit that it's the classical Tibetan approach of "never without a master" ... a bit like "I am an absolute ignorant, ..."

Could we accept that nowadays, with the important existing litterature and the accessibility of open teachings, it could be otherwise?

Sönam
Sure! They call it : new age.
Just a big waste of time.
this is an opinion, Dzogchen better recommend openness ... it always has been such type of opinion, We use to call it old age Image

Sönam

In essential reality, which lacks all bias and partiality,
view, empowerment, mandala and mantra-recitation are absent,
and levels, paths, commitment, training and progress are unimaged;
all are wide open, unfounded, boundless vastness,
everything embraced by pure-mind reality.

- Longchen Rabjam -

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:12 pm
by Pastabodhi
Dzogchen better recommend a real Guru. "Guru" stands for: guru-disciple relationship.

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:49 pm
by Karma Dondrup Tashi
Sönam wrote:this is an opinion, Dzogchen better recommend openness ... it always has been such type of opinion, We use to call it old age Image

Sönam

In essential reality, which lacks all bias and partiality,
view, empowerment, mandala and mantra-recitation are absent,
and levels, paths, commitment, training and progress are unimaged;
all are wide open, unfounded, boundless vastness,
everything embraced by pure-mind reality.

- Longchen Rabjam -
It's a weird position to take especially for an experienced practitioner. If I want to learn piano or karate how can I really do that from a book? I need a teacher.

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:01 pm
by Sönam
I was anwering to our friend Pastabodhi, who apparently did'nt took time to read all what I wrote ...
Sönam wrote:I do not disagree on the advantage of the master in descovering our true nature ... I simply disagree with those that repeat automatically that same litany, "you cannot discover ..." how do they know if they simply think so?

Sönam
and that's why I cited Longchen Rabjam

If you follow the discussion post after post, you certainly would'nt found that so weird ... what is often more weird is the antique chorus repeating, without real self understanding, words just like a motto.

as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...

Sönam

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:06 pm
by Karma Dondrup Tashi
Sönam wrote:as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
What happens to direct introduction in this scenario?

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:36 pm
by Inge
Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
This I think refers to the other practiced mentioned above your quote in the text, as the next sentence states: "In contrast to these other practices, Khenpo Gangshar's instructions are concise and easy to follow."

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:40 pm
by Silent Bob
Inge wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
This I think refers to the other practiced mentioned above your quote in the text, as the next sentence states: "In contrast to these other practices, Khenpo Gangshar's instructions are concise and easy to follow."
You may be right. I just re-read a transcript of his teachings in Vancouver, 9/2008, where Rinpoche gave more complete instructions on togal and he didn't say anything about "difficulties and problems".

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:55 am
by padma norbu
fax me that transcript, would ye?

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:07 am
by Silent Bob
"Restricted Distribution"

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:44 am
by padma norbu
you've passed the test. now, it is okay to fax it to me.

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:10 am
by Sönam
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Sönam wrote:as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
What happens to direct introduction in this scenario?
?? ... it's your own comparison, "If I want to learn piano or karate how can I really do that from a book? I need a teacher"

Sönam

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:14 am
by Pema Rigdzin
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Sönam wrote:as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
What happens to direct introduction in this scenario?
It's helpful, but not necessarily even needed. Apparently, one fine day one may just spontaneously glimpse the true nature of primordial guitar chops and become one bad-ass guitar player. Not sure if one recognizes knowledge of one's natural state, let alone attains stability in it, though... which is a bummer.

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:03 am
by Sönam
many intelligent peoples those days, having right opinions ... they know a lot! thank's for their unlightened views.

Sönam

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:57 am
by booker
Sönam wrote:as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
Really, are we limited to one life only?

Well also Buddha Shakyamuni proved it's possible without a teacher (in terms He discovered what none of teachers of His time known) however as far cumulation of merit&wisdom goes, he could not do what He did if in the past he didn't do what he did (and as far stories of Him goes, he was a student of a Buddha in some past life). Or in other versions He was already enlightened aeons before He manifested as Shakyamuni in our era.

So, it's a no - somehow we need the Master. And if someone has glimpses of true nature not even knowing what Buddhadharma is, such things are the results of a practice or an encounter with enlightned teachings in the past lifes.

At least this is if we assume a thingy called karma :)

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:31 am
by Pastabodhi
antique chorus rocks!
:twothumbsup:

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:59 am
by Sönam
Pastabodhi wrote:antique chorus rocks!
:twothumbsup:
happy it pleased you :applause:

Sönam

Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:55 am
by Dechen Norbu
Is it possible for an interested dzogchen beginner like me to practice tögal?
The context and the question are themselves the answer. You ask it in a public Buddhist forum, to people you know little or nothing about, while saying you are a beginner. There's no need to argue about this. The definitive answer is no. Practicing togal before one is ready only brings trouble. So, back to the drawing board... :smile: