Dzogchen Longde Tantras

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:22 am

Fa Dao wrote:Magnus,
that is problematic but as far as I know these are the only translations of these two Tantras in English...
In general, you won't find anything very special in the so called "klong sde" tantras since their view and so on is virtually identical with so called "sems sde."

The unique stuff is in the various instructions which take these tantras as their basis.
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Fa Dao
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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Fa Dao » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:40 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Magnus,
that is problematic but as far as I know these are the only translations of these two Tantras in English...
In general, you won't find anything very special in the so called "klong sde" tantras since their view and so on is virtually identical with so called "sems sde."

The unique stuff is in the various instructions which take these tantras as their basis.
good to know...please elaborate...
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:51 am

Fa Dao wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Magnus,
that is problematic but as far as I know these are the only translations of these two Tantras in English...
In general, you won't find anything very special in the so called "klong sde" tantras since their view and so on is virtually identical with so called "sems sde."

The unique stuff is in the various instructions which take these tantras as their basis.
good to know...please elaborate...

Ask ratna to post his master's thesis. Of anyone here, he knows the most about klong sde. You also have to keep in mind that so called sems sde and klong sde lineages do not self-identify as such since the idea of sems, klong, and man ngag sde come from the Vima Nyingthig and do not appear prior to its revelation in 1118.
Atikosha
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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Fa Dao
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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Fa Dao » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In general, you won't find anything very special in the so called "klong sde" tantras since their view and so on is virtually identical with so called "sems sde."

The unique stuff is in the various instructions which take these tantras as their basis.
good to know...please elaborate...

Ask ratna to post his master's thesis. Of anyone here, he knows the most about klong sde. You also have to keep in mind that so called sems sde and klong sde lineages do not self-identify as such since the idea of sems, klong, and man ngag sde come from the Vima Nyingthig and do not appear prior to its revelation in 1118.
ok..but what about Vairocana who is said to have received and transmitted the semde and longde that he received from Shri Singha? Wasnt that before 1118? Also what about Dzin Dharmabodhi who is said to have lived at the time of Machig Labdron (1031-1139) and integrated into the longde tantric methods of transformation?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by heart » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In general, you won't find anything very special in the so called "klong sde" tantras since their view and so on is virtually identical with so called "sems sde."

The unique stuff is in the various instructions which take these tantras as their basis.
good to know...please elaborate...

Ask ratna to post his master's thesis. Of anyone here, he knows the most about klong sde.
https://www.academia.edu/1995685/Lost_i ... _klong-sde

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:05 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:
good to know...please elaborate...

Ask ratna to post his master's thesis. Of anyone here, he knows the most about klong sde. You also have to keep in mind that so called sems sde and klong sde lineages do not self-identify as such since the idea of sems, klong, and man ngag sde come from the Vima Nyingthig and do not appear prior to its revelation in 1118.
ok..but what about Vairocana who is said to have received and transmitted the semde and longde that he received from Shri Singha? Wasnt that before 1118? Also what about Dzin Dharmabodhi who is said to have lived at the time of Machig Labdron (1031-1139) and integrated into the longde tantric methods of transformation?
The terms sems sde and klong sde come from the Vima Nyinthig. You will never find these terms used prior to that time. The original name of the klong sde tradition was the Vajra Bridge (rdo rje zam pa), based on the short instruction given to Mipham Gonpo. This is the tradition that comes from Dzeng Dharmabodhi. There is another set of writings that divide the path into nine spaces. This is another Varja Bridge commentarial tradition through Se Bandhe.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Fa Dao
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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Fa Dao » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:43 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:
good to know...please elaborate...

Ask ratna to post his master's thesis. Of anyone here, he knows the most about klong sde.
https://www.academia.edu/1995685/Lost_i ... _klong-sde

/magnus
oh yeah..I got this quite a while ago...its awesome!
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Fa Dao » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:46 pm

ok..but what about Vairocana who is said to have received and transmitted the semde and longde that he received from Shri Singha? Wasnt that before 1118? Also what about Dzin Dharmabodhi who is said to have lived at the time of Machig Labdron (1031-1139) and integrated into the longde tantric methods of transformation?[/quote]

The terms sems sde and klong sde come from the Vima Nyinthig. You will never find these terms used prior to that time. The original name of the klong sde tradition was the Vajra Bridge (rdo rje zam pa), based on the short instruction given to Mipham Gonpo. This is the tradition that comes from Dzeng Dharmabodhi. There is another set of writings that divide the path into nine spaces. This is another Varja Bridge commentarial tradition through Se Bandhe.[/quote]

Look bro, wasnt trying to be confrontational...this is just what I read in NN's books...just wanted some clarification
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:18 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Look bro, wasnt trying to be confrontational...this is just what I read in NN's books...just wanted some clarification
I understand. The historical narrative of the arrival of Dzogchen teaching in Tibet was radically altered by the revelation of the Vima Nyinthig in 1118, so much so that it literally eclipsed earlier narratives. There are no traditional Tibetan teachers that question this narrative, even though it definitely is the case that prior to the VN, the lingo of the three series was never used by anyone. For example, the earliest comprehensive history of Dharma composed by Nyangral in the late 12th does not mention these terms at all.

He refers to five main systems of Dzogchen. The first one is the the one we understand as klong sde, which he simply summarizes as the lineage given to Yudra Nyingpo connected with the five tantras typically now associated with klong sde. But he does not mention Mipham Gonpo, nor 'Dzeng. It appears that he does not know about the Vajra Bridge at all.

He mentions the lineage of Aro Yeshe Jungney. He mentions the cycle of the Kun byed rgyal po. He mentions the Brahmin cyle. He also mentions the unsurpassed Dzogchen cycle of the 17 tantras. He never mentions anything about the three series anywhere. He was a generation younger than Zhangton Tashi Dorje, the terton of the VN, so this definitely shows that in the late twelfth century, the idea of the three series was restricted to the circle around Zhangton. Thus, it is really only in post- 12th century texts outside of the VN where we begin to see the systemization of the three series applied to Dzogchen teachings.
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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Fa Dao » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:20 am

cool man..thanks for the info...is this book connected to what you were referring to: "The Nature of Mind: The Dzogchen Instructions of Aro Yeshe Jungne" and if so is it any good?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:19 am

Fa Dao wrote:cool man..thanks for the info...is this book connected to what you were referring to: "The Nature of Mind: The Dzogchen Instructions of Aro Yeshe Jungne" and if so is it any good?

I think it is by Khenpo Palden Sherab. Anything by him is good.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Fa Dao » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:43 pm

yep..thats the one...by him and the other Khenpo...I really liked their book "Liberating Duality with Wisdom Display" really helped to understand the 8 manifestations of Guru Rinpoche
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by heart » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:23 pm

Fa Dao wrote:yep..thats the one...by him and the other Khenpo...I really liked their book "Liberating Duality with Wisdom Display" really helped to understand the 8 manifestations of Guru Rinpoche
The other Khenpo is his brother.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by florin » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:48 pm

heart wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:yep..thats the one...by him and the other Khenpo...I really liked their book "Liberating Duality with Wisdom Display" really helped to understand the 8 manifestations of Guru Rinpoche
The other Khenpo is his brother.

/magnus
According to Lama Dawa the other khenpo is my root teacher. :shrug:
I never knew what to do with this information.
Now is too late anyway.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:54 pm

florin wrote: I never knew what to do with this information.

The phrase "pinch of salt" comes to mind.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by florin » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
florin wrote: I never knew what to do with this information.

The phrase "pinch of salt" comes to mind.
Yeah, i thought so.
A bit of a "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" kind of thing...
However, on the other hand he seems to be known as an important divinator.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by mutsuk » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:21 pm

Norwegian wrote: The one on JLA's forum (I don't have the link to the posts) mentioned how Wilkinson completely mistranslated something which referred to something entirely different than what he had translated it as, which thus results in something quite confusing. I tried searching for it, but either my search parameters were wrong or the search function just sucks.
The criticism that I formulated on JLA's forum was about the translation of the expression "lu-gu-rgyud" which is a classical compound in Dzogchen texts, pointing to the [diamond] chains [of Awareness] ([rig pa rdo rje] lu gi rgyud). This expression was rendered by CW as : "lineage of lamb" (?!?) which makes no sense at all, right? I was surprised that such a classical expression was mistranslated like that, because the work that CW did in his Calgary MA on Yangti in 1988 was quite good as far as I remember...

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by heart » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:26 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Norwegian wrote: The one on JLA's forum (I don't have the link to the posts) mentioned how Wilkinson completely mistranslated something which referred to something entirely different than what he had translated it as, which thus results in something quite confusing. I tried searching for it, but either my search parameters were wrong or the search function just sucks.
The criticism that I formulated on JLA's forum was about the translation of the expression "lu-gu-rgyud" which is a classical compound in Dzogchen texts, pointing to the [diamond] chains [of Awareness] ([rig pa rdo rje] lu gi rgyud). This expression was rendered by CW as : "lineage of lamb" (?!?) which makes no sense at all, right? I was surprised that such a classical expression was mistranslated like that, because the work that CW did in his Calgary MA on Yangti in 1988 was quite good as far as I remember...
:smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Norwegian » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:16 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Norwegian wrote: The one on JLA's forum (I don't have the link to the posts) mentioned how Wilkinson completely mistranslated something which referred to something entirely different than what he had translated it as, which thus results in something quite confusing. I tried searching for it, but either my search parameters were wrong or the search function just sucks.
The criticism that I formulated on JLA's forum was about the translation of the expression "lu-gu-rgyud" which is a classical compound in Dzogchen texts, pointing to the [diamond] chains [of Awareness] ([rig pa rdo rje] lu gi rgyud). This expression was rendered by CW as : "lineage of lamb" (?!?) which makes no sense at all, right? I was surprised that such a classical expression was mistranslated like that, because the work that CW did in his Calgary MA on Yangti in 1988 was quite good as far as I remember...
Great, thanks for posting what I didn't remember and didn't find via search.

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Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras

Post by Fa Dao » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:51 am

Fa Dao wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Ask ratna to post his master's thesis. Of anyone here, he knows the most about klong sde.
https://www.academia.edu/1995685/Lost_i ... _klong-sde

/magnus
oh yeah..I got this quite a while ago...its awesome!
oops! just noticed that this is not the same paper I have written by Sten...the one I have is his thesis....reading through this one now...wow!
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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