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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:56 pm
by Malcolm
mindyourmind wrote: This whole Ati-lite thing is getting on my nerves. Read something like "Blazing Splendor" and see how Dzogchen should be studied.
The state of Dzogchen is Buddhahood. Whoever practices Dzogchen is trying to integrate with that state. A Dzogchen without Buddhism is not possible, since Dzogchen represents the goal of all paths, whether non-Buddhist or Buddhist. That goal is buddahood or full awakening.
  • "My vehicles are inconceivable,
    when summarized, are included in two, samsara and nirvana"
-- The Tantra of Self-Arisen Vidyā

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:56 pm
by Dechen Norbu
In Buddhadharma I see Dzogchen and vice versa. I consider Dzogchen the distillation of what is most profound in Buddhadharma. "Buddhism" and Buddhadharma may not always be the same.

Sometimes I wonder if this desire of mine of going through SMS is not my last attempt to keep holding to some crutches. Really... and it worries me a bit. :|

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:58 pm
by Dechen Norbu
Mariusz wrote: They will not learn monotheism belief here
The most interesting thing about Dzogchen is that if one has capacity and a qualified teacher, soon it has very little to do with beliefs and much more with letting beliefs crumble.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:00 pm
by Mr. G
Dechen Norbu wrote: Sometimes I wonder if this desire of mine of going through SMS is not my last attempt to keep holding to some crutches. Really... and it worries me a bit. :|
I'm going to the SMS Level 1 teaching this year. I think it'll be extremely beneficial.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:04 pm
by Malcolm
gregkavarnos wrote: And just like it happened that all these incredibly important ideals and means have been reduced to a money making scam, you will find that it will also (has already started to) happen to Dzogchen. Then what will you do? Look for something new and untainted until that is worn thin again?
I will recommend that someone find an authentic teacher of Dzogchen, if that is their interest. Then this is sufficient. I can't help what con artists who sell the name "Dzogchen" to make money do.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:04 pm
by mindyourmind
Dechen Norbu wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:I find Dzogchen's stance of being both a part of and also outside Buddhism to be quite off-putting.

I practice Buddhism for a reason, it is a path that works for me. If that means that I am attached to "Buddhism" then I accept that, quite gladly. If I wanted to have Muslims and Christians practicing with me then I would have gone to where they practice. I accept that Dzogchen's approach is good for the turnstiles, but I am having difficulty with it. I could explain that much better but not within the terms of the Board here.

I'm old-school on this, and not apologizing for it. Some things come with time and practice, mostly the good things in the Dharma. This whole Ati-lite thing is getting on my nerves. Read something like "Blazing Splendor" and see how Dzogchen should be studied.
I understand your perspective. It was a struggle for me too. :consoling:
The thing is that this isn't Dzogchen lite we're talking about. It's Dzogchen without bullshit. Dzogchen with bullshit must be served for those who can't accept its naked version. As long as it works...

PS I'm still dumping a lot of unnecessary baggage. The fact is that Dzogchen as it is does away with many things we used as crutches. It's not easy to leave them when we used them for many years. Sometimes it's even a bit scary, I dare to say.

PPS bullshit from a Dzogchen perspective, that is, as in not necessary for its practice. On its own, it's not bullshit. So it's in an utilitarian sense that I'm using the word (I accept more polite suggestions that convey the same meaning).
I'm aware of that, and of course all of that has its place.

I just don't think it's for me, and I say that after a long and rigorous investigation. And that has nothing to do with my mental and intellectual abilities, it's just what I see as an effective vehicle for me, one where I will make the most progress with.

As I see it Dzogchen was an add-on, a stage that you reached after you did the hard yards, once your arse was already calloused from meditation and all those "unnecessary" things. Nowadays Dzogchen is, in some instances, is just an excuse for being lazy, for being superior, for another identity on top of your old self, just spiritual materialism gone nuts (apologies to Trungpa Rinpoche). The Greats, from Dudjom Rinpoche to Patrul Rinpoche to Kyentse Rinpoche to Urgyen Rinpoche didn't swan around being "dzogchenpas", they worked hard at their practice every day all their lives, up until the last days.

This thread is about what is necessary for Dzogchen, amongst others, and it touches exactly on what I have been struggling with these last few months.
I'm aware of my crutches, and I have made peace with them. I need them until such time as I can stand on my own. And please, a part of what pisses me off about this is exactly the superior attitude of "One day when you are ready Dzogchen will be waiting".

Just my personal thoughts, nothing important.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:06 pm
by Malcolm
heart wrote:
Bhusuku wrote:And if Dzogchen contradicts the sutra/tantra teachings even on such basic buddhist doctrines, what is actually the use of studying sutra teachings at all for someone who's mainly interested in Dzogchen? I mean, isn't it actually a waste of time studying Abhidharma, if later on you realize that the Dzogchen teachings have a complete different POV on many Abhidharma subjects? The same applies for studying Madhyamaka: why waste many years to gain an in depth understanding of the two truths if later on you realize that there's only one truth in Dzogchen?
In what way does Dzogchen contradict the sutra and tantra teachings?

/magnus

Dzogchen abandons the dichotomy between mind and matter found in sutra and tantra. Theoretically, this is a most crucial difference. Because it abandons this dichtomy, it also abandons the dichtomy between the sentient and the non-sentient.

N

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:07 pm
by Dechen Norbu
Mr. G wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote: Sometimes I wonder if this desire of mine of going through SMS is not my last attempt to keep holding to some crutches. Really... and it worries me a bit. :|
I'm going to the SMS Level 1 teaching this year. I think it'll be extremely beneficial.
I'm still to apply to the Base Level exam. It looks great, but when I hear ChNN referring the main point of practice so often (although I'm not saying one excludes the other- I'm just thinking about my attitude), and considering I already studied many of the Base Level subjects before, I worry if I'm not just trying to hold on to something, to build some artificial structure to support my practice and so on. I've been considering asking some advice and share my thoughts about all this, but this is not the place to do it... :smile:

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:10 pm
by Sönam
Dechen Norbu wrote: ...
I worry if I'm not just trying to hold on to something, to build some artificial structure to support my practice and so on.
...
Certainly it is so ... but it does not mean you should not do it :twothumbsup:

Sönam

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:17 pm
by Mr. G
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote: Sometimes I wonder if this desire of mine of going through SMS is not my last attempt to keep holding to some crutches. Really... and it worries me a bit. :|
I'm going to the SMS Level 1 teaching this year. I think it'll be extremely beneficial.
I'm still to apply to the Base Level exam. It looks great, but when I hear ChNN referring the main point of practice so often (although I'm not saying one excludes the other- I'm just thinking about my attitude), and considering I already studied many of the Base Level subjects before, I worry if I'm not just trying to hold on to something, to build some artificial structure to support my practice and so on. I've been considering asking some advice and share my thoughts about all this, but this is not the place to do it... :smile:
Sure, I understand. For me, I think it'll help deepen my personal practice immensely. I personally like a structured method that progressively builds upon foundational material. Personally, I feel the lack of community to assist with one's practice can make it extremely hard to keep one's practice in check which is why SMS seems like a great program.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:20 pm
by Malcolm
mindyourmind wrote:
I just don't think it's for me, and I say that after a long and rigorous investigation. And that has nothing to do with my mental and intellectual abilities, it's just what I see as an effective vehicle for me, one where I will make the most progress with.

As I see it Dzogchen was an add-on, a stage that you reached after you did the hard yards, once your arse was already calloused from meditation and all those "unnecessary" things.
A Dzogchen pracitioner's fundamental responsibility is to understand their own condition. They may use any and all useful methods from the nine-yānas, or even non-Buddhist traditons like hatha yoga to better integrate with their own state. So for example, if someone is having obstacles, then perhaps they should focus on Tara or Guru Drag Phur. Since Manjushri is the state of the realization described in the 80th chapter of the Self-Arisen Vidyā tantra, someone who wishes to understand Dzogchen in general better might concentrate on a Manjushri cycle such as Manjushrivadasimha, etc. If someone needs to extend their life, they should rely on Amitayus or Mandarava or White Tara.

There is no limitation on what a Dzogchen pracititioner can practice. We can study the Yoga Sutras for example, since they are interesting and have valuable advice on meditation practice. There are no limitations apart from those we impose on ourselves and others. The function of Dzogchen, Mahāmudra, Perfection of Wisdom is to transcend limitations, not to stay bound in them.

The idea that Dzogchen is an "add-on" is not the perspective of Dzogchen tantras or Garab Dorje himself. This is a later gradualist view that was largely promulgated as a response to criticisms of the Sarma schools.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:26 pm
by pensum
i find it fascinating that so many people seem to be omniscient and know what is best for other individuals at their stage in life, understanding and practice. almost everyone, whether Buddhist, Dzogchenpa, Nyingma, Kagyupa, Gelugpa, Sakyapa, Theravada, Mahayana, Zen, Shingon, Jodo Shinshu, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. etc. all claim that their path is the best or only true path. being an ignorant old fool i don't doubt that for them whatever path they are on is the best path, as it is the result of their own individual karma. so many of the world's ills and problems seem to arise however from assuming that you are the only person in the world and everyone else is simply your clone and either ignorant, evil or damned for not seeing or admitting that fact and that yours is the one true path. well, count me among the damned for i can't help but feel that those scriptural statements that there are as many paths as their are individuals have a basis in fact.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:31 pm
by Malcolm
pensum wrote:i find it fascinating that so many people seem to be omniscient and know what is best for other individuals at their stage in life, understanding and practice. almost everyone, whether Buddhist, Dzogchenpa, Nyingma, Kagyupa, Gelugpa, Sakyapa, Theravada, Mahayana, Zen, Shingon, Jodo Shinshu, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. etc. all claim that their path is the best or only true path. being an ignorant old fool i don't doubt that for them whatever path they are on is the best path, as it is the result of their own individual karma. so many of the world's ills and problems seem to arise however from assuming that you are the only person in the world and everyone else is simply your clone and either ignorant, evil or damned for not seeing or admitting that fact and that yours is the one true path. well, count me among the damned for i can't help but feel that those scriptural statements that there are as many paths as their are individuals have a basis in fact.

Yes, this is correct. This is why it is crucial that Dzogchen be presented as a path available to all without any restriction other than their interest.

Buddhism has become in many respects an ossified missionary religion primarily concerned with gaining converts and worshipping in nice houses. Now, don't get me wrong, I like nice houses, but it seems to me that by and large nice houses have become more important than the Dharma they are supposed to house. All that is Buddhist is not necessarily Dharma. All that is Dharma is not necessarily Buddhist.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:37 pm
by Matylda
Namdrol wrote: /magnus

Dzogchen abandons the dichotomy between mind and matter found in sutra and tantra. Theoretically, this is a most crucial difference. Because it abandons this dichtomy, it also abandons the dichtomy between the sentient and the non-sentient.

N[/quote]

But then it sounds like zen teaching... I think Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche does not like it. Then what about the view? If it is only the mind body issue doesn't it implicate only the difference in the method? Then some would not agree again.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:44 pm
by Malcolm
Matylda wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Dzogchen abandons the dichotomy between mind and matter found in sutra and tantra. Theoretically, this is a most crucial difference. Because it abandons this dichtomy, it also abandons the dichtomy between the sentient and the non-sentient.

N
But then it sounds like zen teaching... I think Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche does not like it. Then what about the view? If it is only the mind body issue doesn't it implicate only the difference in the method? Then some would not agree again.
ChNN likes Chan/Zen just fine.

I am not sure I understand the rest of your question.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:18 pm
by heart
Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
In what way does Dzogchen contradict the sutra and tantra teachings?

/magnus

Dzogchen abandons the dichotomy between mind and matter found in sutra and tantra. Theoretically, this is a most crucial difference. Because it abandons this dichtomy, it also abandons the dichtomy between the sentient and the non-sentient.

N
This is a very subtle point. Not sure that I agree with you on this point, there is a lot of possibilities for misunderstanding, but not being learned enough I will refrain from discussing it. Anyway, are you quite sure this actually is a serious contradiction? Also if you accept the idea of the twelve Dzogchen Budhhas is it not true Shakyamuni is one of them?

/magnus

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:32 pm
by Grigoris
Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen abandons the dichotomy between mind and matter found in sutra and tantra. Theoretically, this is a most crucial difference. Because it abandons this dichtomy, it also abandons the dichtomy between the sentient and the non-sentient.
Does Dzogchen also abandon the attachment to the dichotomy of attachment and abandonment? :tongue:

Just joking!
:namaste:

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:36 pm
by Blue Garuda
Namdrol wrote:
Dzogchen abandons the dichotomy between mind and matter found in sutra and tantra. Theoretically, this is a most crucial difference. Because it abandons this dichtomy, it also abandons the dichtomy between the sentient and the non-sentient.

N
If you can find dichotomies in sutra and tantra perhaps it is because you have been conditioned to think that way. Certainly in self-generation in HYT there can be no dichotomy, surely.

If you look, you can find a message to support your chosen path anywhere - Dylan Thomas for example:
''The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Drives my green age;''

Edit: It just occurred to me that Jains similarly apply 'ahimsa' to plants as well as all other forms of life.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:40 pm
by Pero
gregkavarnos wrote: PS We do realise that Longchen Rabjam is describing a fully enlightened being here and not a wannabe Dzogchenpa?
No Greg, we don't. Because he isn't.

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:19 pm
by MalaBeads
This is the first time I have read things on this board that have brought tears to my eyes. Wanting to say this.....is also a part of my condition.