Institutional Buddhism

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 2322
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:37 pm

quote="Mr. G"]
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:But Dzogchen teachings are Dzogchen teachings and they shouldn' t be changed.
The existence and discovery of new termas is change. :smile:
Tashi delek,

Termas are additional sources to the exisiting Dzogchen sources. They do not change Dzogchen at all, this we can watch if we do compare Dzogchen Teachings, out of different Traditions. Dzogchen = Dzogchen / Rainbow Body = Rainbow Body.

But i am also interested to know from you, in how far "The existence and discovery of new termas is change " ? What is then changed in case we speak of change?

Mutsog Marro
KY
"Change" in the sense that one doesn't need to go through elaborate empowerments or need intellectual study to practice Dzogchen. Or that one must do ngondro first before starting other practices. Or receiving transmission over webcast. "Change" encompasses a lot in terms of methodology over time.[/quote]
The best meditation is no meditation

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3994
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by heart » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Are you suggesting our conditions are only formed by our opinions?

/magnus

I am suggesting that people have a right to assess their own experience without being gainsayed by others.

Well, I didn't gainsay him. I asked him how he knows that Ngondro didn't make any difference for direct introduction. Seems relevant enough, since this is a discussion forum.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Simon E.
Posts: 4416
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:53 pm

Because I was there.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3994
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by heart » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:07 pm

Simon E. wrote:Because I was there.
I am glad you were, but it doesn't answer my question.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Simon E.
Posts: 4416
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:15 pm

It answered mine.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Sönam » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:56 pm

Simon E. wrote:It answered mine.
For once I'm on magnus side ... because your sentence imply that you only have one side of the experience, so how can you compare? :smile:

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Simon E.
Posts: 4416
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:02 pm

I was a student of Thrangu Rinpoche...still am I guess at some level. Did the Kagyu Ngondro. Recieved all the Ganges Mahamudra initiations.
Direct transmission was of a different order of experience.
Not a more advanced or matured experience of the same kind.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

Simon E.
Posts: 4416
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:03 pm

Simon E. wrote:I was a student of Thrangu Rinpoche...still am I guess at some level. Did the Kagyu Ngondro. Recieved all the Ganges Mahamudra initiations.
Direct transmission was of a different order of experience.
Not a more advanced or matured experience of the same kind.
Incidentally I am not on anyone's side.
If it resonates fine...if it doesn't then thats ok too.

:namaste:
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

Sherlock
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Sherlock » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote: No, I was not aware of this. That's very interesting. I take it you mean the first Ju Mipham left the letter? Where can one find a reference for this? Thanks!
:namaste:
I think if you read any detailed bio of MIpham you can discover this fact. I forgot where I read this, but it was in an academic work.

Perhaps in Kapstein. In any event, as far as I am concerned there are no tulkus of Mipham who are in reality reincarnations of Mipham.

Wiki actually has a quote originally from Petit's book Mipham's Beacon of Certainty

User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Sönam » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:20 pm

Simon E. wrote:I was a student of Thrangu Rinpoche...still am I guess at some level. Did the Kagyu Ngondro. Recieved all the Ganges Mahamudra initiations.
Direct transmission was of a different order of experience.
Not a more advanced or matured experience of the same kind.
Nice, I've also been a student of Thrangu Rinpoché (as magnus was by the way ...) ... the point is how you've expressed it
I did the full Kagyu Ngondro.
It made no difference one way or another to the transmission of Dzogchen ..
As the discussion was if they would be a difference in having made ngondrö or not before DI, you only experimented DI with ngondrö before ... so you have not experimented DI without ngondrö, therefore you cannot confirm wether it is the same or not.
So it's just an opinion, and magnius can ask how could you know then ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Simon E.
Posts: 4416
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:29 pm

Fine...
I have no desire at all to change anyone's view. :smile: I am merely reporting my own experience.
Please feel free to disregard it.

:namaste:
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

User avatar
Virgo
Global Moderator
Posts: 2297
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Globe

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Virgo » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:34 pm

xx
Last edited by Virgo on Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Sönam » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:46 pm

Simon E. wrote:Fine...
I have no desire at all to change anyone's view. :smile: I am merely reporting my own experience.
Please feel free to disregard it.

:namaste:
Come on ... I do believe that ngondrö is not necessary, and it's also what my master teach. But if someone says he has made ngondrö, someone may ask him how does he knows because he cannot compare only with his own experience ... it's simple logic, nothing to do with ideology

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Simon E.
Posts: 4416
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:57 pm

I am not sure who you are arguing with... :namaste: I am not offering logic or considered debate.
Merely describing my experience. If it resonates with others fine. If it does not then thats ok too.
I suspect that none of us ever arrives at any kind of real experience by debate.
But I could be wrong.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4596
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by conebeckham » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:05 pm

Simon E. wrote:I was a student of Thrangu Rinpoche...still am I guess at some level. Did the Kagyu Ngondro. Recieved all the Ganges Mahamudra initiations.
Direct transmission was of a different order of experience.
Not a more advanced or matured experience of the same kind.
There are no Ganges Mahamudra Initiations, per se...though certainly there's a transmission.

There are myriad other transmissions in Mahamudra lineages.....the funny thing is, they are all somewhat similar, but with the right one, at the right time, under the right circumstances, you may have "a different order of experience."

Which is not to take away from your own experience in the slightest, but merely to point out the possibilities.

Funny thing- that which is "pointed out" is beyond causes, conditions, etc., yet circumstances lead to this knowledge, this experience. Tilopa's sandal was not a part of "Institutional Buddhism," was it?
Last edited by conebeckham on Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Simon E.
Posts: 4416
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:07 pm

Thank you for pointing out that there are other possibilities. I am sure you are right.

:namaste:
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Sönam » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:28 pm

Simon E. wrote:I am not sure who you are arguing with... :namaste: I am not offering logic or considered debate.
Merely describing my experience. If it resonates with others fine. If it does not then thats ok too.
I suspect that none of us ever arrives at any kind of real experience by debate.
But I could be wrong.
For shure we do not speak on the same line ... be happy

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Sönam » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:31 pm

About logic ... if one have experimented A+B=C and not B=C, how his experience can tell him that both are equal?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Simon E.
Posts: 4416
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:37 pm

I am vanquished.

:namaste:

As I have said on another thread I am not sufficiently au fait with the dynamic of debate on the forum to make a helpful contribution. Clearly there is the thing in itself and then there is something else. Which I suspect may be historical and perhaps personal.
I will therefore desist.

:namaste:
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Institutional Buddhism

Post by Sönam » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:39 pm

of course nothing personal ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests