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Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:44 am
by Anders
oldbob wrote:What will you tell Yama when he sends down his hook for you: that you had permission to teach Dzogchen, or that you taught Dzogchen, or that you are a Tulku, or that you translated the Dzogchen Tantras, or that you had a thousand lovers, or that you wrote beautiful poems, or that you danced a beautiful dance? :woohoo: :smile:

I don't think he will listen.
:bow:

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:49 am
by Simon E.
Anders wrote:
oldbob wrote:What will you tell Yama when he sends down his hook for you: that you had permission to teach Dzogchen, or that you taught Dzogchen, or that you are a Tulku, or that you translated the Dzogchen Tantras, or that you had a thousand lovers, or that you wrote beautiful poems, or that you danced a beautiful dance? :woohoo: :smile:

I don't think he will listen.
:bow:
Now tell us what it actually means in terms of Dzogchen...words about words about words are still ...words. And time is still a- wasting even when we discus the fact.

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:54 am
by Andrew108
May be this topic should have been posted in the personal experience part of the forum?

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:32 am
by Anders
Simon E. wrote:
Anders wrote:
oldbob wrote:What will you tell Yama when he sends down his hook for you: that you had permission to teach Dzogchen, or that you taught Dzogchen, or that you are a Tulku, or that you translated the Dzogchen Tantras, or that you had a thousand lovers, or that you wrote beautiful poems, or that you danced a beautiful dance? :woohoo: :smile:

I don't think he will listen.
:bow:
Now tell us what it actually means in terms of Dzogchen...words about words about words are still ...words. And time is still a- wasting even when we discus the fact.
Hi Simon,

Does it really require translation? It seems to me a waste of energy, though a frequent habit amongst practitioners, to want to live life through the abstractions of a tenet system. Personally, I appreciate Buddhism for its immediacy and direct pointing towards aspects of life that are readily observable and require little abstraction but on the contrary are truths that demand abandoning our tendency to alienate ourselves from the immediacy of the experience of life.

[thus I have heard] "What is the Noble Truth of Suffering? Birth is suffering, ageing is suffering, sickness is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering". That's straight talk. Anyone can recognise the self-evident truth of such words. If someone asked me "Now tell us what it actually means in terms of Buddhism" I'd have to tell him to go live a little and get familiar with it. These words, these symbols, don't point to other symbols in a framework of symbolic and abstract representation. They simply point to a self-evident facet of life.

Death is unavoidable. And contemplating this has its spiritual upsides (so sayeth the Buddha, at any rate). We don't have a lot of time in this world. A truck could run you over tomorrow. If you knew this were to happen, how would you spend your remaining hours in this world? Are there things left undone or unsaid for you? Once we get really honest about death, the question starts sneaking in: Do we really dare take the chance that we won't get run down by a bus tomorrow? Is life worth living as if we have time to waste? Also, surprising facets come to the fore as one becomes more intimate with this topic - death seems less frightening. The shadow of death, rather than looming menacingly on the edge of consciousness, becomes a friend standing in the open that reminds us to live life more fully, as we work ourselves towards living quite literally as if every day were our last. The fleeting nature of the things in our lives begin to become more apparent. The things we cherish - none of them can be taken with us when we die. They are stuff for loan. Why treat them as if they were for keeps?

But all this is just more abstraction, since this is my experience with this topic and not yours. Truth be told, since you did ask "Now tell us what it actually means in terms of Dzogchen" I have to tell you - such an answer is not very meaningful. Who cares for the meaning of 'death' within the abstracted formulations of 'Dzogchen'? Seeking such answers is only good for inoculating ourselves from the unnerving truths it may reveal about our own existence. How can such a thing have spiritual impact? Death is a very immediate affair. It has immediate meaning for all people. This is why the Buddha liked talking about it. It's a very universal thing. The question I consider worth asking is not "what it actually means in terms of Dzogchen" but rather "What does death mean to Simon E."

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:40 am
by Simon E.
I have no idea.

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:10 am
by Anders
In such a case, I'd suggest the pertinent issue is less so looking for meaningful answers as it is finding the meaningful questions.

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:15 am
by underthetree
Conceptual thought is clothing. Conceptualization is simply the draping of emptiness so that it becomes form. It isn't about 'us' being naked. Everything is naked. Everything is clothed.

Or so it seems to me.

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:31 am
by Simon E.
Anders wrote:In such a case, I'd suggest the pertinent issue is less so looking for meaningful answers as it is finding the meaningful questions.
Absolutely Not.

:namaste:

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:20 am
by retrofuturist
David N. Snyder wrote:Plants are sentient, now nakedness is good; are you becoming a Jain? :tongue:
Comedy gold.

Nice one, David.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:58 am
by Mr. G
Off Topic posts removed

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:34 pm
by Sönam
retrofuturist wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Plants are sentient, now nakedness is good; are you becoming a Jain? :tongue:
Comedy gold.

Nice one, David.

Metta,
Paul. :)
or a rastafari :applause:

Sönam

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:06 am
by heart
Simon E. wrote: Now tell us what it actually means in terms of Dzogchen...words about words about words are still ...words. And time is still a- wasting even when we discus the fact.
He is saying that your opinions about Dzogchen doesn't matter at all when you are about to die, which might be any moment, only your own capacity to practice. So discussions that is a bit to much "my Dzogchen is better than your Dzogchen" is not very helpful at all. Not for you, not for me, not for anyone.

/magnus

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:58 am
by Simon E.
heart wrote:
Simon E. wrote: Now tell us what it actually means in terms of Dzogchen...words about words about words are still ...words. And time is still a- wasting even when we discus the fact.
He is saying that your opinions about Dzogchen doesn't matter at all when you are about to die, which might be any moment, only your own capacity to practice. So discussions that is a bit to much "my Dzogchen is better than your Dzogchen" is not very helpful at all. Not for you, not for me, not for anyone.

/magnus
I agree entirely.
Opinions indeed do not matter at all. Mine, his, or yours about his or mine.
If anyone read what I said as a claim to a better Dzogchen, then they brought that meaning with them and shoveled it on.

"With trembling hand I aimed my hand at the phony dogs who teach,
Fearing not to become my own enemy
In the instant that I preach
Lies, that life was black and white
So clear, no doubt somehow.
Ah but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now "

My Back Pages...Bob Dylan.

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:49 am
by Stewart
Simon E. wrote:
heart wrote:
Simon E. wrote: Now tell us what it actually means in terms of Dzogchen...words about words about words are still ...words. And time is still a- wasting even when we discus the fact.
He is saying that your opinions about Dzogchen doesn't matter at all when you are about to die, which might be any moment, only your own capacity to practice. So discussions that is a bit to much "my Dzogchen is better than your Dzogchen" is not very helpful at all. Not for you, not for me, not for anyone.

/magnus
I agree entirely.
Opinions indeed do not matter at all. Mine, his, or yours about his or mine.
If anyone read what I said as a claim to a better Dzogchen, then they brought that meaning with them and shoveled it on.

"With trembling hand I aimed my hand at the phony dogs who teach,
Fearing not to become my own enemy
In the instant that I preach
Lies, that life was black and white
So clear, no doubt somehow.
Ah but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now "

My Back Pages...Bob Dylan.

If your going to quote Dylan....at least try and get it right!


In a soldier’s stance, I aimed my hand

At the mongrel dogs who teach

Fearing not that I’d become my enemy

In the instant that I preach

My pathway led by confusion boats

Mutiny from stern to bow

Ah, but I was so much older then

I’m younger than that now

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:55 am
by Simon E.
Thank you for the correction. :namaste:
I shouldnt try to do things from memory. :smile:

The salient point being
" fearing not that I'd become my own enemy
in the instant that I preach ".
I have absolutely no opinion about death or Dzogchen.
If I did have I would disassociate myself from those opinions.

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:56 pm
by oldbob
heart wrote:
Simon E. wrote: Now tell us what it actually means in terms of Dzogchen...words about words about words are still ...words. And time is still a- wasting even when we discus the fact.
He is saying that your opinions about Dzogchen doesn't matter at all when you are about to die, which might be any moment, only your own capacity to practice. So discussions that is a bit to much "my Dzogchen is better than your Dzogchen" is not very helpful at all. Not for you, not for me, not for anyone.

/magnus
:good:

No Dzogchen here! :heart:

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:02 pm
by Simon E.
I have no opinion of Dzogchen. I have none now. I think it unlikely that I will have an opinion of Dzogchen when my time comes to die.
There is no " My Dzogchen "..so the matter of whose Dzogchen is better than whose does not arise.

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:45 pm
by oldbob
Simon E. wrote:I have no opinion of Dzogchen. I have none now. I think it unlikely that I will have an opinion of Dzogchen when my time comes to die.
There is no " My Dzogchen "..so the matter of whose Dzogchen is better than whose does not arise.
In 1963 I ran away from home, packing food and clothes in a guitar case and traveled by bus to the Newport Folk Festival where I snuck in back stage to meet Dlyan and Bayez.

Yes, how many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky ?
Yes, how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry ?
Yes, how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died ?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

Judy Collins took off all her clothes and jumped into the swimming pool at the motel - everyone else followed after her - NAKED! :heart:

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:50 pm
by Simon E.
I see.

Re: Nakedness

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:04 pm
by Anders
Simon E. wrote:I have no opinion of Dzogchen. I have none now. I think it unlikely that I will have an opinion of Dzogchen when my time comes to die.
There is no " My Dzogchen "..so the matter of whose Dzogchen is better than whose does not arise.
This sort of non-opinion/view sounds more like taking no-view as a position, tbh. Actual freedom from views strikes me as more organic and capable of taking in views and opinions and them kissing them on their merry way when done with them.

Of course, I don't know your mind. You could have just more profound practise than what I can tell from a computer screen. But that's how it comes across anyway.