Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connection

[Malcolm]

Guenther was also of the view, which I happen to share, that Dzogchen is rather anomalous to Indian Buddhism.

I don't see how this could possibly apply to so called sems sde texts. The rhetoric of "bodhicitta" in sems sde is identical to that found for example in the Guhyasamaja.

Second, we have no evidence whatsoever of any thögal like teachings being written down by anyone until the early 11th century, whether Buddhist or Bon.

In terms of unique doctrines, the most unique thing in Bonpo Dzogchen is ZZNG's emphasis on sounds, lights and rays, which really only figures in the ZZNG, and it pretty much absent from other Bonpo Dzogchen cycles, based on a electronic word search conducted on the other two main cycles of Dzogchen in Bon.

While I would have no complaints about sourcing Dzogchen in Central Asia, within the sphere of Indian cultural influence, I see absolutely no evidence which links Dzogchen doctrines with teachings generally outside of Buddhadharma and the Indian context.

[Losal Samten]

I've never heard of any brand of tirthika leaving hair and nails behind, only disappearing without a trace.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

I've never heard of any brand of tirthika leaving hair and nails behind, only disappearing without a trace.

And the rainbow body phenomena is important because….?

[Losal Samten]

Rainbow body and the atomic body are two different things resulting from different practices.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Rainbow body and the atomic body are two different things resulting from different practices.

"Atomic body"? I've not heard of that before, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. If you'd care to elaborate I'd/we'd appreciate it.

[Losal Samten]

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... les#p92759
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... les#p39989
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... les#p40022
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... les#p92762

[Ivo]

In Bulgaria, where I come from, in the Eastern Ortodox tradition there are numerous instances of what appears to be the lesser rainbow body among the early isihast mystics. The body shrinking to the size of an infant is considered a very common sign of spiritual accomplishment and these remains are preserved in many, many monasteries throughout the land to this day. Anyone can go to the Rila Monastery to see one of the most famous remains of St. Ivan Rilski, but the same goes for many other places and for Greece too where many such remains are also kept. On Mt. Athos presumably the isihast practices are even still preserved and practiced, although generally not in the monasteries but only by the hermit community in the caves.

[tingdzin]

Thanks Ivo -- very interesting.

[Ivo]

Thanks Ivo -- very interesting.

Yes it is. The knowledge of these shrunken bodies was very common when I grew up. It was even taught in school as a normal part of the Ortodox tradition and everyone was very comfortable with the idea as everyone had seen these relics as they are all over our monasteries. I have seen them numerous times when I was a kid. Almost every major monastery has one - either a full body or a limb, or fingers, etc. They are all the size of an infant. The isihast tradition was very deep, they practiced only in caves, the teacher-disciple connection was of paramount importance and it was all oral transmission. From what I herd during my childhood they definitely had some thogyal-like practices using postures and light.

[shanehanner]

Thanks Ivo -- very interesting.

Yes it is. The knowledge of these shrunken bodies was very common when I grew up. It was even taught in school as a normal part of the Ortodox tradition and everyone was very comfortable with the idea as everyone had seen these relics as they are all over our monasteries. I have seen them numerous times when I was a kid. Almost every major monastery has one - either a full body or a limb, or fingers, etc. They are all the size of an infant. The isihast tradition was very deep, they practiced only in caves, the teacher-disciple connection was of paramount importance and it was all oral transmission. From what I herd during my childhood they definitely had some thogyal-like practices using postures and light.

Wow, thats fascinating. I did a quick google for images of St. Ivan Rilski remains but couldnt find any. That would really be something to see.

[gad rgyangs]

this must be where they keep his shrunken body:

http://www.saintivanrilski.com/en/

[spanda]

this must be where they keep his shrunken body:

http://www.saintivanrilski.com/en/

You are so funny!!


To bad that you miss completely a whole spiritual "technology", with impressive practice.

This phenomenon is also very well known in my country, where some very advanced hesychast practitioners didn't where almost no clothes in hard winter, and remain alive almost with no food at all, etc, and there are a lot of cases of practitioners who didn't left behind a body.
They uses specific postures, specific breathing techniques, and a specific point of mind focus (in the heart), and they talk in their text in detail about the "heat" which emerge from the practice, about the distinction between the "correct" one, and the incorrect ones, etc, about the different stage of contemplative meditation, etc. I read a hesychast texts which was almost indistinguishable from a yogic presentation of mind
I don't say this is Tantra or Dzogchen, but you must be completely blind to don't see some similarities, if you study this traditions in depth.

[florin]

I don't say this is Tantra or Dzogchen, but you must be completely blind to don't see some similarities, if you study this traditions in depth.

There are plenty of similarities but that doesnt make them the same.
All spiritual traditions have similarities but their views and goals are different.

[newbie]

Thanks Ivo -- very interesting.

Yes it is. The knowledge of these shrunken bodies was very common when I grew up. It was even taught in school as a normal part of the Ortodox tradition and everyone was very comfortable with the idea as everyone had seen these relics as they are all over our monasteries. I have seen them numerous times when I was a kid. Almost every major monastery has one - either a full body or a limb, or fingers, etc. They are all the size of an infant. The isihast tradition was very deep, they practiced only in caves, the teacher-disciple connection was of paramount importance and it was all oral transmission. From what I herd during my childhood they definitely had some thogyal-like practices using postures and light.

Hi everyone!

This is interesting indeed.
I come from the Eastern Orthodox areal, I know about relic worshipping but it never crossed my mind a connection as the above.
I refer to parts of it because some of the terms/practices I do not know, being new to buddhism, but I'm eagger to learn.

KT

[tingdzin]

These comments from the people who know about the Orthodox tradition make me hope that Tiso uses Orthodox sources in his book, which I am now eager to read (but still a little skeptical).

[shanehanner]

Tiso's new book Rainbow Body was just released yesterday. Gonna dig into the Kindle version now!

[Virgo]

Tiso's new book Rainbow Body was just released yesterday. Gonna dig into the Kindle version now!

Please give us a review.

Kevin

[Kris]

Bahtawi of highlands of Ethiopia have been doing this for ages, even before Christianity entered. Also Amazonian mystics (not necessarily shamans) are known to disappear etc.

I don't think these are the same as rainbow body phenomena.

[Malcolm]

Predictably, I will tell you that Father Tiso's book, while interesting, is not to be taken seriously by practitioners.

It is a mishmash, at best. However, his account of Khenpo Acho is quite nice.

Unfortunately, I will have to argue with people inspired by his syncretism and uncritical acceptance of some western academic bloviators for the rest of my life.

[Norwegian]

Predictably, I will tell you that Father Tiso's book, while interesting, is not to be taken seriously by practitioners.

It is a mishmash, at best. However, his account of Khenpo Acho is quite nice.

That is what I expected...

How long is the part about Khenpo Acho? Worth buying the book just for that?