Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connection

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28301
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:50 pm

tingdzin wrote: Guenther was also of the view, which I happen to share, that Dzogchen is rather anomalous to Indian Buddhism.
I don't see how this could possibly apply to so called sems sde texts. The rhetoric of "bodhicitta" in sems sde is identical to that found for example in the Guhyasamaja.

Second, we have no evidence whatsoever of any thögal like teachings being written down by anyone until the early 11th century, whether Buddhist or Bon.

In terms of unique doctrines, the most unique thing in Bonpo Dzogchen is ZZNG's emphasis on sounds, lights and rays, which really only figures in the ZZNG, and it pretty much absent from other Bonpo Dzogchen cycles, based on a electronic word search conducted on the other two main cycles of Dzogchen in Bon.

While I would have no complaints about sourcing Dzogchen in Central Asia, within the sphere of Indian cultural influence, I see absolutely no evidence which links Dzogchen doctrines with teachings generally outside of Buddhadharma and the Indian context.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1447
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Losal Samten » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:58 pm

I've never heard of any brand of tirthika leaving hair and nails behind, only disappearing without a trace.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

smcj
Posts: 5833
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by smcj » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:02 pm

Mother's Lap wrote:I've never heard of any brand of tirthika leaving hair and nails behind, only disappearing without a trace.
And the rainbow body phenomena is important because….?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1447
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Losal Samten » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:05 pm

Rainbow body and the atomic body are two different things resulting from different practices.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

smcj
Posts: 5833
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by smcj » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:16 pm

Mother's Lap wrote:Rainbow body and the atomic body are two different things resulting from different practices.
"Atomic body"? I've not heard of that before, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. If you'd care to elaborate I'd/we'd appreciate it.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1447
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Losal Samten » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:47 pm

Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

User avatar
Ivo
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:34 pm
Location: EU
Contact:

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Ivo » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:32 pm

In Bulgaria, where I come from, in the Eastern Ortodox tradition there are numerous instances of what appears to be the lesser rainbow body among the early isihast mystics. The body shrinking to the size of an infant is considered a very common sign of spiritual accomplishment and these remains are preserved in many, many monasteries throughout the land to this day. Anyone can go to the Rila Monastery to see one of the most famous remains of St. Ivan Rilski, but the same goes for many other places and for Greece too where many such remains are also kept. On Mt. Athos presumably the isihast practices are even still preserved and practiced, although generally not in the monasteries but only by the hermit community in the caves.

tingdzin
Posts: 1068
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by tingdzin » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:14 am

Thanks Ivo -- very interesting.

User avatar
Ivo
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:34 pm
Location: EU
Contact:

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Ivo » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:05 am

tingdzin wrote:Thanks Ivo -- very interesting.
Yes it is. The knowledge of these shrunken bodies was very common when I grew up. It was even taught in school as a normal part of the Ortodox tradition and everyone was very comfortable with the idea as everyone had seen these relics as they are all over our monasteries. I have seen them numerous times when I was a kid. Almost every major monastery has one - either a full body or a limb, or fingers, etc. They are all the size of an infant. The isihast tradition was very deep, they practiced only in caves, the teacher-disciple connection was of paramount importance and it was all oral transmission. From what I herd during my childhood they definitely had some thogyal-like practices using postures and light.

User avatar
shanehanner
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by shanehanner » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:02 am

Ivo wrote:
tingdzin wrote:Thanks Ivo -- very interesting.
Yes it is. The knowledge of these shrunken bodies was very common when I grew up. It was even taught in school as a normal part of the Ortodox tradition and everyone was very comfortable with the idea as everyone had seen these relics as they are all over our monasteries. I have seen them numerous times when I was a kid. Almost every major monastery has one - either a full body or a limb, or fingers, etc. They are all the size of an infant. The isihast tradition was very deep, they practiced only in caves, the teacher-disciple connection was of paramount importance and it was all oral transmission. From what I herd during my childhood they definitely had some thogyal-like practices using postures and light.
Wow, thats fascinating. I did a quick google for images of St. Ivan Rilski remains but couldnt find any. That would really be something to see.

User avatar
gad rgyangs
Posts: 1141
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by gad rgyangs » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:10 am

this must be where they keep his shrunken body:

http://www.saintivanrilski.com/en/
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

spanda
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by spanda » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:23 am

gad rgyangs wrote:this must be where they keep his shrunken body:

http://www.saintivanrilski.com/en/

You are so funny!!


To bad that you miss completely a whole spiritual "technology", with impressive practice.

This phenomenon is also very well known in my country, where some very advanced hesychast practitioners didn't where almost no clothes in hard winter, and remain alive almost with no food at all, etc, and there are a lot of cases of practitioners who didn't left behind a body.
They uses specific postures, specific breathing techniques, and a specific point of mind focus (in the heart), and they talk in their text in detail about the "heat" which emerge from the practice, about the distinction between the "correct" one, and the incorrect ones, etc, about the different stage of contemplative meditation, etc. I read a hesychast texts which was almost indistinguishable from a yogic presentation of mind
I don't say this is Tantra or Dzogchen, but you must be completely blind to don't see some similarities, if you study this traditions in depth.

User avatar
florin
Posts: 1129
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by florin » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:25 pm

spanda wrote: I don't say this is Tantra or Dzogchen, but you must be completely blind to don't see some similarities, if you study this traditions in depth.
There are plenty of similarities but that doesnt make them the same.
All spiritual traditions have similarities but their views and goals are different.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

newbie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:11 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by newbie » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:51 pm

Ivo wrote:
tingdzin wrote:Thanks Ivo -- very interesting.
Yes it is. The knowledge of these shrunken bodies was very common when I grew up. It was even taught in school as a normal part of the Ortodox tradition and everyone was very comfortable with the idea as everyone had seen these relics as they are all over our monasteries. I have seen them numerous times when I was a kid. Almost every major monastery has one - either a full body or a limb, or fingers, etc. They are all the size of an infant. The isihast tradition was very deep, they practiced only in caves, the teacher-disciple connection was of paramount importance and it was all oral transmission. From what I herd during my childhood they definitely had some thogyal-like practices using postures and light.
Hi everyone!

This is interesting indeed.
I come from the Eastern Orthodox areal, I know about relic worshipping but it never crossed my mind a connection as the above.
I refer to parts of it because some of the terms/practices I do not know, being new to buddhism, but I'm eagger to learn.

KT

tingdzin
Posts: 1068
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by tingdzin » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:51 am

These comments from the people who know about the Orthodox tradition make me hope that Tiso uses Orthodox sources in his book, which I am now eager to read (but still a little skeptical).

User avatar
shanehanner
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by shanehanner » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:22 pm

Tiso's new book Rainbow Body was just released yesterday. Gonna dig into the Kindle version now!

User avatar
Virgo
Global Moderator
Posts: 3439
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:11 am

shanehanner wrote:Tiso's new book Rainbow Body was just released yesterday. Gonna dig into the Kindle version now!
Please give us a review.

:namaste: Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Sennin » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:55 am

Bahtawi of highlands of Ethiopia have been doing this for ages, even before Christianity entered. Also Amazonian mystics (not necessarily shamans) are known to disappear etc.

I don't think these are the same as rainbow body phenomena.
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28301
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:30 pm

Predictably, I will tell you that Father Tiso's book, while interesting, is not to be taken seriously by practitioners.

It is a mishmash, at best. However, his account of Khenpo Acho is quite nice.

Unfortunately, I will have to argue with people inspired by his syncretism and uncritical acceptance of some western academic bloviators for the rest of my life.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Norwegian
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connec

Post by Norwegian » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:Predictably, I will tell you that Father Tiso's book, while interesting, is not to be taken seriously by practitioners.

It is a mishmash, at best. However, his account of Khenpo Acho is quite nice.
That is what I expected...

How long is the part about Khenpo Acho? Worth buying the book just for that?

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: climb-up, deff, Dorje Shedrub, javadm, javier.espinoza.t, Phuntsog Tashi and 78 guests