Dear all and All,
Here is a reposting (with slight editing) that may apply here.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p111360" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Everyone is making very good points
and all posts are exactly correct from the viewpoint of the person posting them. I think we are all trying to work this through in a good way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
simhamuka wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Well, the "problem" is mainly regarding the Vajrayana view of the two truths. It is not 100% compatible with that of Dzogchen, wouldn't you agree?
From the dzogchen point of view the two truths are inseparable, per Jetsunma. So it's not really incompatible so much as things look different from the ground as compared to how they look from the top of the tower.
The real trick is what can one put into practice? I think it was Dudjom Rinpoche who, when asked for dzogchen teachings, asked those students to eat a pound of their own sh*t. If they couldn't eat it with same relish they'd have for a pound of chocolate, then he said they really didn't have dzogchen view. The necessity for the placebo becomes evident based on the actual RL view of the student.
Hi Simhamuka all and All,
Simhamuka is exactly correct. It looks complicated but it is not: things look different from the ground than they look from the top of the tower.
A great Dzogchen Master like HH Dudjom Rinpoche was teaching Dzogchen all the time with his being. That, and through the pointing out instruction, is how Dzogchen is taught. Words about Dzogchen, concepts about Dzogchen are not Dzogchen, nor are they placebos for anything. You can't swallow the Dzogchen corpus and then be able to eat shit with equanimity. No Dzogchen Master presents it this way. From the Dzogchen point of view, the two truths are inseparable, per the Great Being Jetsunma. When you have this view of inseparability, then you can eat shit, or anything, with equanimity, because whatever arises in your continuum has one taste: it is all flavored by instant presence. Note: if you eat actual shit, because it has harmful bacteria in it, you will get sick and you may die, even if you are a Dzogchen Master. You don't practice to get sick and die!
When you make a tsog, you can visualize the various items as various items. Then, if you can eat everything with equanimity (as a visualization) then you can understand what HHDR was talking about. So in the quote, HHDR could be saying, I am not going to teach you Dzogchen view unless you have Dzogchen view, and this knocks down to the 12 vajra laughs and the 8 amazing things. Sounds like, "you can't get there from here."
But you can!
This is why we practice Dzogchen: so when we take the pointing out instruction, or just even come into the presence of a realized Master, such as HHDR, then we will have the capacity to be in the same state as he is.
The key point for understanding, (and putting your mind at rest), is that from the view of Dzogchen, the accumulation of relative and absolute merit does not “earn” instant presence. Instant presence has no cause and does not depend on anything. No amount of accumulations can earn it.
At the same time, it is also true, that from the viewpoint of the normal mind, the earning of relative and absolute merit could be said to plant the causes of entering instant presence, but not through the activity of the earning of relative and absolute merit.
The causes that provide for easing the way into instant presence are the building up of the association with the Dzogchen Master, and your a-tuning to him/ her, over time.
This is why Guru Yoga is said to be the main practice of Dzogchen.
Some people arrive to the teachings with a greater or lesser capacity for going into the state of instant presence, perhaps because of practice in a past life. Some get instant presence on just walking into a room where a Dzogchen Master is staying. Some get instant presence the first time they take a pointing out instruction: others take longer.
Does this means that relative practice is a placebo for instant presence or for anything else?
No!
If a placebo works, it is not a placebo. Norman Cousins is said to have cured himself from Cancer by watching humor films. A happy person is full of lots of good causes which create good health. An unhappy person is full of lots of bad causes which create bad health. By watching the humor films, Norman Cousins was replacing his normal mind filled with his usual activities, with the humor, “story," of the films. His body responded by laughing. Ask Norman Cousins if the films, or laughter were a placebo for a cancer medicine and he will laugh: he will laugh informed by profound gratefulness that he is still alive to laugh. He took the pill of humor and the pill of laughter and it cured his disease.
We are doing exactly the same thing when we replace our normally distracted mind with sadhana practice. The cohesive activities of sadhana practice organize the actions of our body, speech, and mind to develop new habits of acting, talking and thinking. Developing the capacity for contemplation replaces monkey mind with peaceful absorption in the Jnanas.
I would not talk of creative visualization /absorption, as being a placebo for anything. The earning of relative merit / absolute merit has real actual benefits, such as developing a capacity for concentration, directed effort, developing a wholesome outlook on life (practicing the 4 immeasurables and the 10 golden things), having a strong body through prostrations and tsa lung practice, and a peaceful mind through developing the capacity for going into the absorptions.
Nundro, Lama, Yidam, and Khandro practices are not placebos for anything. They are the medicine of Lord Buddha, curing the disease of wrong activity, wrong speech and wrong views, and a path leading to realization in one life. The 9 yana framework includes Dzogchen: Ati has nothing to say. For some people this is indeed the perfect path and the quickest way up the mountain.
Please, anyone, correct me if you have a different view. I haven’t ever thought about this before and I am making it up as I go along.
If you want a really excellent presentation of the “Two Truths” in the Nyingmapa, I would refer you to “The Treasure of the Various Essential Necessities of General and Extraordinary Buddhist Dharma that are in the very concise book, The small Golden Key by the incomparable Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, may he always stay over my head.
Chapter eight explaines the Two Truths, very well.
http://www.amazon.com/Small-Golden-Key-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... Golden+Key
Hope this is of help to someone and that no one feels that I am stepping on their toes.
Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, in good health and with success in all things.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ultimately, it remains for each of us to work out our path to realization with diligence!