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Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:57 am
by kirtu
heart wrote:I just now reread Jamgon Kongtrul's biography, "A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems", and it strikes me that he, just like ChNNR, has a huge amount of dreams with all kinds of transmissions in them. He meet enlightened masters, and deities and receive teachings from them. He finds termas and see "signs of termas", he receive Tantras and transmissions of Tantras, he do practices such as Tögal in his dreams and so on.
But he remained skeptical of terma - he had to be goaded into entering a cave where Chokgyur Lingpa and Khyentse Wangpo were sort of extracting terma by the armload and they sort of ordered him to go get his. I'm not quite sure what to make of that incident.

Kirt

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:48 am
by heart
kirtu wrote:
heart wrote:I just now reread Jamgon Kongtrul's biography, "A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems", and it strikes me that he, just like ChNNR, has a huge amount of dreams with all kinds of transmissions in them. He meet enlightened masters, and deities and receive teachings from them. He finds termas and see "signs of termas", he receive Tantras and transmissions of Tantras, he do practices such as Tögal in his dreams and so on.
But he remained skeptical of terma - he had to be goaded into entering a cave where Chokgyur Lingpa and Khyentse Wangpo were sort of extracting terma by the armload and they sort of ordered him to go get his. I'm not quite sure what to make of that incident.

Kirt
Really, where in his biography is this incident? He was a very dedicated practitioner of termas all his life for example Könchok Chidu and Lama Gongdu.

/magnus

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:40 am
by mutsuk
heart wrote:He was a very dedicated practitioner of termas all his life...
Not to mention the fact that, before his forced conversion to Kagyus, he was an ardent practitioner of the rTsa-rlung mkha'-'gro gsang-mdzod from the New Bon tradition. It is a gter-ma by the 1st Kun-grol rinpoche. Kongtrul even included the entire cycle in the Rin-chen gter-mdzod (in vol. 63).

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:56 am
by heart
mutsuk wrote:
heart wrote:He was a very dedicated practitioner of termas all his life...
Not to mention the fact that, before his forced conversion to Kagyus, he was an ardent practitioner of the rTsa-rlung mkha'-'gro gsang-mdzod from the New Bon tradition. It is a gter-ma by the 1st Kun-grol rinpoche. Kongtrul even included the entire cycle in the Rin-chen gter-mdzod (in vol. 63).
He was at Sechen for a while before he came to Palpung. I think the thing was that he got sponsored if he went to Palpung, but their attitude towards his Nyingma monk vows were quite sad.

/magnus

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:57 am
by mutsuk
Even before Sechen, he had drang-srong (bonpo) vows which he did not want to give back when he had to convert to the buddhist vinaya. He was forced to anyway... In any case, his appreciation of gter-ma was pristine from the start, mostly because nearly 99 per cent of the Bon literature (in which he was such an expert) is gter-ma.

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:06 am
by heart
mutsuk wrote:Even before Sechen, he had drang-srong (bonpo) vows which he did not want to give back when he had to convert to the buddhist vinaya. He was forced to anyway... In any case, his appreciation of gter-ma was pristine from the start, mostly because nearly 99 per cent of the Bon literature (in which he was such an expert) is gter-ma.
I agree, he really seems to appreciate terma, and he was a terton himself. He also written a lot of sadhanas and commentaries in the Chokling Tersar as well as many other terma cycles.

/magnus

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:36 am
by Yeti
heart wrote:
mutsuk wrote:Even before Sechen, he had drang-srong (bonpo) vows which he did not want to give back when he had to convert to the buddhist vinaya. He was forced to anyway... In any case, his appreciation of gter-ma was pristine from the start, mostly because nearly 99 per cent of the Bon literature (in which he was such an expert) is gter-ma.
I agree, he really seems to appreciate terma, and he was a terton himself. He also written a lot of sadhanas and commentaries in the Chokling Tersar as well as many other terma cycles.

/magnus
Guru Rinpoche left one terma to either Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo or Chogyur Lingpa which was to be given to Jamgon Kongtrul only, as it's sole purpose was to dispel obstacles to his health.

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:11 pm
by kirtu
heart wrote:
kirtu wrote: But he remained skeptical of terma - he had to be goaded into entering a cave where Chokgyur Lingpa and Khyentse Wangpo were sort of extracting terma by the armload and they sort of ordered him to go get his. I'm not quite sure what to make of that incident.

Kirt
Really, where in his biography is this incident? He was a very dedicated practitioner of termas all his life for example Könchok Chidu and Lama Gongdu.
It's not nearly as skeptical as I remember: pg 147 "Gem of Many Colors"
Seating me on a throne made of stones, the two of them invested me with the title of a terton and performed a ceremony for my long life. Each of these masters discovered a profound terma, after which we went to the ancestral estate of the Alo Dilgo family to begin a mendrup ritual focusing on the Eight Commands. We then journeyed together to Perna Shelri. We performed feast offerings at such places as Osel Shelphuk Cave (associated with Bairotsana), and the two masters also opened Orgyen Sangphuk Cave. Each of them discovered a cache of termas. The great terton even urged me to try, and I came out of the Orgyen Sangphuk Cave with a casket of termas in my hands and offered it to him.
He indeed practiced terma and had faith in Chokgyur Lingpa and Khyentse Wangpo. Initially he did not know what to make of Chokgyur Lingpa and was skeptical of him until he was vetted by Khyentse Wangpo. His attitude toward tertons seemed to me to be guarded but I'd have to go back through his works to see if that were the case. By guarded, I mean that apparently some deluded people have claimed to be tertons and he certainly required investigation first.

Kirt

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:24 pm
by mutsuk
He was not skeptical about gter-ma or gter-ston in general but when mChog gyur gling pa came to him, mChog gyur had a (bad) reputation (because of people from his region who called him skya-gter, etc.). But Kongtrul is THE one responsible for compiling the Rin-chen gter-mdzod, therefore I don't think he had been skeptical about gter-ma at all. He was however well aware of fakes and tried to collect all transmissions of major (as well as minor) gter-mas available by his time.

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:52 pm
by dzogchungpa
What does "skya gter" mean?

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:59 pm
by mutsuk
It means terton from the sKyasu clan with, in the context it occurs, a depreciative connotation. Kyasu was the family name of Chogyur Lingpa, an important familial clan of the Nangchen region.

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:31 pm
by Sherlock
From a transcript of a teaching ChNNR gave about the Jnanadakini practice he received:
I have been talking a lot about my dreams and many people think I am a terton because I have these kinds of dreams. But I have never said I am a terton and I do not feel I am one. Tertons can also discover material objects. I receive these kinds of teachings mainly in my dreams. It is true that I have a certain capacity of dreams. Many people say they are realized. I never say I am realized. I do not feel I am realized. I feel I have a certain capacity of dreams that maybe you do not have yet. That is true. But I am always teaching you how you can have that capacity too."

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:18 pm
by flavio81
Sherlock wrote:From a transcript of a teaching ChNNR gave about the Jnanadakini practice he received:
I have been talking a lot about my dreams and many people think I am a terton because I have these kinds of dreams. But I have never said I am a terton and I do not feel I am one. Tertons can also discover material objects. I receive these kinds of teachings mainly in my dreams. It is true that I have a certain capacity of dreams. Many people say they are realized. I never say I am realized. I do not feel I am realized. I feel I have a certain capacity of dreams that maybe you do not have yet. That is true. But I am always teaching you how you can have that capacity too."
He also said the same (underlined) on a Lima retreat some years ago. Something like:

"I do not say i am realized. What i say is that perhaps i have a little more capacity than you, and that's why i teach you."

That moment of humility and honesty brought a tear into my eye.

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:13 pm
by Sherlock
He always says that, especially when he mentions the story of how some organizers in New Zealand once packed his schedule completely full of events because they said they thought he was enlightened and didn't need sleep.

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:55 pm
by Malcolm
mutsuk wrote:Even before Sechen, he had drang-srong (bonpo) vows which he did not want to give back when he had to convert to the buddhist vinaya. He was forced to anyway... In any case, his appreciation of gter-ma was pristine from the start, mostly because nearly 99 per cent of the Bon literature (in which he was such an expert) is gter-ma.
If you read his bio, there he recounts that because he devloped doubts about terma while at palpung he devloped some obstacles.

Re: Most recent terma?

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:24 am
by mutsuk
It cannot be a generalization about gter-ma per se, since before he was forced to conversion, he was very active in the diffusion of he gter-mas of the 1st Kun grol Rinpoche as well as those of Sangs-rgyas gling-pa (Byang-chub rdo-rje). His main practice at the time was that of the rTsa-rlung mkha'-'gro gsang-mdzod which itself is a gter-ma (kun grol's). Therefore I think he had doubt about some nyingma gter ma. I can imagine why he had doubt about some of these, gSang sngags gling pa who was a gter-ston himself was very careful in recognizing "authentic" gter-mas. Theirs was a time when frauds abounded...