Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:23 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:38 pm


Pema Khandro has students, that makes her a teacher by fiat.
Sure. Nonetheless, claims have been made, and it is reasonable to ask for verification or confirmation. "Examine well the potential Guru," etc., right?
Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.
So, according to your book, I can claim to be a tulku and authorised to give Dzogchen empowerments and you are cool with that? I mean I can probably bribe Pema Khandro to put an official signature to my claim.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:23 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:56 pm


Sure. Nonetheless, claims have been made, and it is reasonable to ask for verification or confirmation. "Examine well the potential Guru," etc., right?
Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.
So, according to your book, I can claim to be a tulku and authorised to give Dzogchen empowerments and you are cool with that? I mean I can probably bribe Pema Khandro to put an official signature to my claim.
You are free. You can do whatever you want. Everyone else does. It's up to students to decide who is a qualified teacher. It is also up to teachers to decide who is a qualified student.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:05 pm
You are free. You can do whatever you want. Everyone else does. It's up to students to decide who is a qualified teacher. It is also up to teachers to decide who is a qualified student.
:good:

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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:05 pm
You are free. You can do whatever you want. Everyone else does. It's up to students to decide who is a qualified teacher. It is also up to teachers to decide who is a qualified student.
Sorry man, but I am calling you out on this one.

Are you telling me that you did not choose your teachers on the grounds of their qualifications and recognised abilities and qualities?

It's a rhetorical question...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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conebeckham
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by conebeckham » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:23 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:38 pm


Pema Khandro has students, that makes her a teacher by fiat.
Sure. Nonetheless, claims have been made, and it is reasonable to ask for verification or confirmation. "Examine well the potential Guru," etc., right?
Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.
Mmmm.....I don't entirely agree. Leaving aside the "tulku claims," which are a red flag anyway, the first question a prospective student should ask, IMO, is "who is the teacher who authorized you to teach?" We are talking about lineage here, the vital life force of Vajrayana traditions. Without lineage, there is nothing. Yes, there is politics involved, but if one cannot even answer that simple question, it's not a matter of politics, but a matter of deceit. If the prospective guru answers my question with a "no one," well......caveat emptor and all that. Frankly speaking, all Kagyu lamas I know, Western or not, can answer the question.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Adamantine
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Adamantine » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:23 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:38 pm


Pema Khandro has students, that makes her a teacher by fiat.
Sure. Nonetheless, claims have been made, and it is reasonable to ask for verification or confirmation. "Examine well the potential Guru," etc., right?
Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.
That’s pretty cynical, though even if it were true: it’s a different animal altogether to fabricate and lie about recognitions and lineage than simply to be honest about the credentials one has in the system one’s in, political or not. Blatantly deceiving people to secure them as students doesn’t really indicate great potential for a guide to enlightenment...

I can’t say if that’s what’s happening in this case, however the ever-changing stories are suspect and not very skillful (even if one wanted to claim skillful means).
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Forrestyogi
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Forrestyogi » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:42 am

Hey did you know this is just a continuation of cyberbullying?

Cyber bullying is when you post rumors, mean comments, harassment etc. It normalizes cruel behavior and violence. Did you know that women and minorities (which she is both) are disproportionately singled out by cyber-bullies? Cyber bullying is a major form of violence against women. Women who are in public positions or who are leaders are frequently targeted. This person you are harassing has a PhD in Tibetan Buddhism, is fluent in Tibetan, has been enthroned as a tulku in a public ceremony, runs dharma centers for decades and a non-profit, prominent Lamas endorse her. Yet you are spreading rumors that she has weak credentials. Its classic cyber-bullying - targeting a powerful woman and trying to bring her down through rumors and insults. You should support female teachers. We need more of them.

Your derogatory insinuation that she “markets herself” insults her for being famous - as if its wrong for women to be prominent. Lion’s roar markets her. Lamas market her. Her students market her. Retreat centers market her. Her own dharma centers market her. Conferences market her. Friends market her. And if she would promote herself too that would be good - we need more women teachers and leaders in Buddhism. More female teachers. Less cyberbullying. Less harassing women online. Less trolling. Less violence against women. Online aggression towards women just normalizes violence towards women in our entire society.

Did you know that cyberbully women leads to them reducing their online presence? It is a way to marginalize an already marginalized group. “A recent study in India found that 28 percent of women who had suffered online abuse intentionally reduced their online presence.” https://dai-global-digital.com/cyber-va ... usion.html

When you interpret a woman’s presence online in derogatory ways, it leads to less women in public leadership roles. So your cyber-bullying towards women has serious consequences.

You should read this article:
Digital Dividends: As we have seen in high-profile cases, female journalists, bloggers, celebrities, and politicians are far more likely than their male counterparts to suffer online abuse. Due to the difficulties of being female and opinionated online, women may choose to remove themselves from the public arena or may be put off running for elected office, sharing their opinions, or becoming a journalist: women are 52 percent less likely than men to express controversial views online. Without being able to use the online space freely, women and girls are far less likely to enjoy the benefits that come with digital technologies, or are far less likely to recognise these benefits.
https://dai-global-digital.com/cyber-va ... usion.html
You should also read this article:

Why Are Women and Girls Targeted?
“Technology may have the power to connect and empower, but it also can reinforce and normalise gender roles and cultural customs. The online world is not just a mirror image, but a “hall of mirrors” of the offline world, reflecting and amplifying the positive and negative. For women and girls, this mirror image often reflects a culture of misogyny, marginalisation, and violence. Shockingly, women are 27 times more likely to be the victims of cyber violence than men.”This is another good article to consider. It talks about how women and especially women leaders face cyber harassment.

“Just like in other forms of violence, it is the women who bear the brunt. Individuals who feel anonymous hiding behind their phones and computers attack these women’s personality as well as their sexuality. A survey done by Ipsos Mori indicated that the women who are mainly targeted are those in public positions and media personalities. Due to their visibility, these women are exposed to millions of faceless people online who take advantage of digital anonymity to say anything.”
-https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brun ... -1.4244184

Here is another good article that talks about cyberbullying as a form of violence towards women online:
“As the internet becomes an increasingly important part of human existence and a critical space for marginalized populations to make their voices heard, a woman’s inability to feel safe online is an impediment to her freedom, as well as to her basic human rights. Yet the problem of online violence and harassment is often overlooked in discussions of violence against women.

“Online violence against women is an overt expression of the gender discrimination and inequality that exists offline. Online, it becomes amplified,” says Jac sm Kee of the Association for Progressive Communications (APC), a Global Fund for Women grantee partner…”

Targeting women online leads to a toxic psychic toll. Not just on the women you are harassing, but for all women. When women see other women being harassed online, it reinforces the idea that the internet is not a safe place for women.

Here is a something to read about cyber-bullying as a free speech and safety issue:
“Cyber-harassment poses a particular threat to women. Amanda Hess gave us an eye-opening glimpse of this in her gripping article Why Women Aren’t Welcome on the Internet. Jamia Wilson, (executive director of WAM! an organization that has partnered with twitter to reduce and report online harassment), noted that cyber-harassment (including stalking, bullying, etc.) is both a free speech and a safety issue: “the disproportionate targeting of women online results in them removing their voices from the public conversation, and even worse can take a toxic psychic toll.”

You can read more here too from AmnesyUSA’s work against online violence towards women:

ONLINE VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
Get involved and help Stop Online Violence Against Women!
For many women, the Internet is not a safe space. Although social media platforms in particular have become a critical space for women to express themselves and make their voices heard, they have also become spaces where women are easily targeted for expressing their views. Online violence and abuse denies women the right to express themselves equally, freely, and without fear.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/online-viole ... nst-women/


Here is a description in Wikipedia of what is Cyber-bulling. Notice this part:
“Internet trolling is a common form of bullying over the Internet in an online community (such as in online gaming or social media) in order to elicit a reaction, disruption, or for someone's own personal amusement.[11][12]”

Cyberbullying
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
"Cyberbully" redirects here. For other uses, see Cyberbully (disambiguation).
For the Wikipedia guidance essay, see Wikipedia:Cyberbullying.
Cyberbullying or cyberharassment is a form of bullying or harassment using electronic means…..Cyberbullying is when someone, typically teens, bully or harass others on social media sites. Harmful bullying behavior can include posting rumors, threats, sexual remarks, a victims' personal information, or pejorative labels (i.e., hate speech).[2] Bullying or harassment can be identified by repeated behavior and an intent to harm.[3] Victims may have lower self-esteem, increased suicidal ideation, and a variety of emotional responses, including being scared, frustrated, angry, and depressed.[4] Research has demonstrated a number of serious consequences of cyberbullying victimization.[10]

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Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:46 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:05 pm
You are free. You can do whatever you want. Everyone else does. It's up to students to decide who is a qualified teacher. It is also up to teachers to decide who is a qualified student.
Sorry man, but I am calling you out on this one.

Are you telling me that you did not choose your teachers on the grounds of their qualifications and recognised abilities and qualities?

It's a rhetorical question...
As I said, it is up to the student decide who is a qualified teacher. Who else can make that decision for anyone?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:21 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:46 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:05 pm
You are free. You can do whatever you want. Everyone else does. It's up to students to decide who is a qualified teacher. It is also up to teachers to decide who is a qualified student.
Sorry man, but I am calling you out on this one.

Are you telling me that you did not choose your teachers on the grounds of their qualifications and recognised abilities and qualities?

It's a rhetorical question...
As I said, it is up to the student decide who is a qualified teacher. Who else can make that decision for anyone?
Well if the said teacher has a "lineage" then there will be a "lineage-head' or several lineage holders to refer to..

Here are a few

Minling tradition Minling trichen dungse dalha rinpoche, Minling khandro rinpoche

Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom yangsi sangye pema zhepa rinpoche, Dudjom yangsi tenzin yeshe dorje. Dungse Garab dorje rinpoche, Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche, Namgyal dawa rinpoche,

Payul Nam cho: Karma kuchen rinpoche, Mugtsang rinpoche, Gyangkhang Rinpoche

Chokling tersar, Tsikey chokling rinpoche, Neten chokling rinpoche

Kathok Kathok moktsa rinpoche, Kathok loga rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche

Drikung kagyu Drikung chetsang rinpoche, Drikung chungtsang rinpoche, Garchen rinpoche

Karma kamtsang The gyalwang karmapa, Tai situ rinpoche, Gyaltsab rinpoche, Jamgon kongtrul rinpoche.

Drukpa kagyu The Gyalwang drukpa, Thuksey rinpoche, khamtrul rinpoche

Sakya tradition The 41st and 42nd sakya trinzin rinpoche's and the other members of the khon family

It's simple really.. it's good to exercise extreme caution with self made teachers, or those recognized by those who are not major lineage holders.

Does it mean there has never been any politics or complications in lineages? no? .. however we receive our practices through the lineages themselves so of course we must defer to the lineage holders.

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:24 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:23 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:38 pm


Pema Khandro has students, that makes her a teacher by fiat.
Sure. Nonetheless, claims have been made, and it is reasonable to ask for verification or confirmation. "Examine well the potential Guru," etc., right?
Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.
"are all pretty much politics" ???

that is implying that the lineage heads lack either A) integrity, or B) wisdom.

As far as i'm concerned, they lack neither.

Otherwise there's little point in reciting lineage prayers, since everyone in the lineage is pretty much full of BS and involved in politics, and/or not the reincarnations they are said to be ..
Last edited by Sonam Wangchug on Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:25 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:21 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:46 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Sorry man, but I am calling you out on this one.

Are you telling me that you did not choose your teachers on the grounds of their qualifications and recognised abilities and qualities?

It's a rhetorical question...
As I said, it is up to the student decide who is a qualified teacher. Who else can make that decision for anyone?
Well if the said teacher has a "lineage" then there will be a "lineage-head' or several lineage holders to refer to..

Here are a few

Minling tradition Minling trichen dungse dalha rinpoche, Minling khandro rinpoche

Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom yangsi sangye pema zhepa rinpoche, Dudjom yangsi tenzin yeshe dorje. Dungse Garab dorje rinpoche, Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche, Namgyal dawa rinpoche,

Payul Nam cho: Karma kuchen rinpoche, Mugtsang rinpoche, Gyangkhang Rinpoche

Chokling tersar, Tsikey chokling rinpoche, Neten chokling rinpoche

Kathok Kathok moktsa rinpoche, Kathok loga rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche

Drikung kagyu Drikung chetsang rinpoche, Drikung chungtsang rinpoche, Garchen rinpoche

Karma kamtsang The gyalwang karmapa, Tai situ rinpoche, Gyaltsab rinpoche, Jamgon kongtrul rinpoche.

Drukpa kagyu The Gyalwang drukpa, Thuksey rinpoche, khamtrul rinpoche

Sakya tradition The 41st and 42nd sakya trinzin rinpoche's and the other members of the khon family

It's simple really.. it's good to exercise extreme caution with self made teachers, or those recognized by those who are not major lineage holders.

Does it mean there has never been any politics or complications in lineages? no? .. however we receive our practices through the lineages themselves so of course we must defer to the lineage holders.
And yet, people continue to adopt teachers who do not have institutional backing. Your chain of authority is only good in so far as you buy it.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:27 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:24 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:23 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:56 pm


Sure. Nonetheless, claims have been made, and it is reasonable to ask for verification or confirmation. "Examine well the potential Guru," etc., right?
Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.
"are all pretty much politics" ???

that is implying that the lineage heads lack either A) integrity, or B) wisdom.
Or c) work with circumstances as best they can
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 237
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:27 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:25 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:21 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:46 am


As I said, it is up to the student decide who is a qualified teacher. Who else can make that decision for anyone?
Well if the said teacher has a "lineage" then there will be a "lineage-head' or several lineage holders to refer to..

Here are a few

Minling tradition Minling trichen dungse dalha rinpoche, Minling khandro rinpoche

Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom yangsi sangye pema zhepa rinpoche, Dudjom yangsi tenzin yeshe dorje. Dungse Garab dorje rinpoche, Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche, Namgyal dawa rinpoche,

Payul Nam cho: Karma kuchen rinpoche, Mugtsang rinpoche, Gyangkhang Rinpoche

Chokling tersar, Tsikey chokling rinpoche, Neten chokling rinpoche

Kathok Kathok moktsa rinpoche, Kathok loga rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche

Drikung kagyu Drikung chetsang rinpoche, Drikung chungtsang rinpoche, Garchen rinpoche

Karma kamtsang The gyalwang karmapa, Tai situ rinpoche, Gyaltsab rinpoche, Jamgon kongtrul rinpoche.

Drukpa kagyu The Gyalwang drukpa, Thuksey rinpoche, khamtrul rinpoche

Sakya tradition The 41st and 42nd sakya trinzin rinpoche's and the other members of the khon family

It's simple really.. it's good to exercise extreme caution with self made teachers, or those recognized by those who are not major lineage holders.

Does it mean there has never been any politics or complications in lineages? no? .. however we receive our practices through the lineages themselves so of course we must defer to the lineage holders.
And yet, people continue to adopt teachers who do not have institutional backing. Your chain of authority is only as good in so far as you buy it.
So how exactly will students receive the lineage practices independent of the lineage masters? Of course we know there are individuals who give wangs who are not authorized to.

Unless if one if fortunate to encounter a teacher like Dudjom lingpa, Exercise extreme caution.

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Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:34 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:27 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:25 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:21 am


Well if the said teacher has a "lineage" then there will be a "lineage-head' or several lineage holders to refer to..

Here are a few

Minling tradition Minling trichen dungse dalha rinpoche, Minling khandro rinpoche

Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom yangsi sangye pema zhepa rinpoche, Dudjom yangsi tenzin yeshe dorje. Dungse Garab dorje rinpoche, Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche, Namgyal dawa rinpoche,

Payul Nam cho: Karma kuchen rinpoche, Mugtsang rinpoche, Gyangkhang Rinpoche

Chokling tersar, Tsikey chokling rinpoche, Neten chokling rinpoche

Kathok Kathok moktsa rinpoche, Kathok loga rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche

Drikung kagyu Drikung chetsang rinpoche, Drikung chungtsang rinpoche, Garchen rinpoche

Karma kamtsang The gyalwang karmapa, Tai situ rinpoche, Gyaltsab rinpoche, Jamgon kongtrul rinpoche.

Drukpa kagyu The Gyalwang drukpa, Thuksey rinpoche, khamtrul rinpoche

Sakya tradition The 41st and 42nd sakya trinzin rinpoche's and the other members of the khon family

It's simple really.. it's good to exercise extreme caution with self made teachers, or those recognized by those who are not major lineage holders.

Does it mean there has never been any politics or complications in lineages? no? .. however we receive our practices through the lineages themselves so of course we must defer to the lineage holders.
And yet, people continue to adopt teachers who do not have institutional backing. Your chain of authority is only as good in so far as you buy it.
So how exactly will students receive the lineage practices independent of the lineage masters? Of course we know there are individuals who give wangs who are not authorized to.

Unless if one if fortunate to encounter a teacher like Dudjom lingpa, Exercise extreme caution.
One of my teachers, ChNN, was considered “unauthorized” for decades, What changed?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:42 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:27 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:24 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:23 pm


Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.
"are all pretty much politics" ???

that is implying that the lineage heads lack either A) integrity, or B) wisdom.
Or c) work with circumstances as best they can
Pretty limiting view of enlightened beings, don't you think? .. Do they work with circumstances, of course, however do they have the wisdom to accurately recognize and confirm the teachers who hold the lineages? absolutely.

For example you could look at HH Dilgo khyentse rinpoche and say well .. he was from the influential Dilgo family so was probably given a token recognition of being a Khyentse due to that.. However, that's not the case ..

When one of the great masters of their times (forget which one) stayed at the Dilgo home, they slept in a room which had a support of Tseringma in it. Well, Tseringma being the personal protector of Jamyang khyentse wangpo came alive that night, and clued him in to the fact that their son was in fact a khyentse.

Evidenced by the fact that he could read Dakini script, and by many other wisdom qualities..

However, as we know, tulkus also appear in poor, and ordinary families, wherever they may be born is something only known to realized beings.

Take for instance the present Benchen sangye nyenpa rinpoche, HH the 16th gyalwang karmapa gave a recognition and a team was sent out in Bhutan looking for the present incarnation. However, they could find no one who had the name provided by the letter. They reported back to HH that they could not find who was in the letter only someone who was a caretaker of Taksang monastery. HH replied "That's him, go back" It turns out the name in the letter was a childhood name which he did not go by, and which no one knew him by.

Or we could look at the Present 41st HH Sakya trizin rinpoche, who in a previous life was one of the miraculously conceived sons of Dudjom lingpa, Apang terton. Apang terton told his students before he passed that he would hold the throne of Sakya in his next life, and when the present HHST was born he could speak Golok dialect despite being from U-tsang, and also recognize previous students of his by their names..

I know having met great teachers you really 'can't just believe they are only involved in murky politics "working with circumstances" but that they do have the wisdom eye to know who is who, easily at that.

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:44 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:34 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:27 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:25 am


And yet, people continue to adopt teachers who do not have institutional backing. Your chain of authority is only as good in so far as you buy it.
So how exactly will students receive the lineage practices independent of the lineage masters? Of course we know there are individuals who give wangs who are not authorized to.

Unless if one if fortunate to encounter a teacher like Dudjom lingpa, Exercise extreme caution.
One of my teachers, ChNN, was considered “unauthorized” for decades, What changed?
The 16th gyalwang karmapa recognized Rinpoche when he was a child, as a wisdom emanation of Shabdrung ngawang rinpoche, did he not?

Rinpoche had traditional training and studied with many eminent lineages holders of his time, did he not?

That's not a teacher who is coming out of no where without the proper recognition and training.

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Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:49 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:44 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:34 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:27 am


So how exactly will students receive the lineage practices independent of the lineage masters? Of course we know there are individuals who give wangs who are not authorized to.

Unless if one if fortunate to encounter a teacher like Dudjom lingpa, Exercise extreme caution.
One of my teachers, ChNN, was considered “unauthorized” for decades, What changed?
The 16th gyalwang karmapa recognized Rinpoche when he was a child, as a wisdom emanation of Shabdrung ngawang rinpoche, did he not?

Rinpoche had traditional training and studied with many eminent lineages holders of his time, did he not?

That's not a teacher who is coming out of no where without the proper recognition and training.

And yet, even so, there are still lamas who think ChNN is totally wrong and not qualified.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Lhasa
Posts: 1093
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:51 am

Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Lhasa » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:55 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:42 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:27 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:24 am


"are all pretty much politics" ???

that is implying that the lineage heads lack either A) integrity, or B) wisdom.
Or c) work with circumstances as best they can


they slept in a room which had a support of Tseringma in it. Well,
What does the word 'support' mean in this case? Garchen RInpoche just recently showed a poster like print he created, for Vajrakilaya practice and he called it a 'support'. What does this mean?

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Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:07 am

Lhasa wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:55 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:42 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:27 am


Or c) work with circumstances as best they can


they slept in a room which had a support of Tseringma in it. Well,
What does the word 'support' mean in this case? Garchen RInpoche just recently showed a poster like print he created, for Vajrakilaya practice and he called it a 'support'. What does this mean?
A support for ones practice, as it aids ones practice, for example in making offerings, or in helping one to visualize.

Lhasa
Posts: 1093
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:51 am

Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training

Post by Lhasa » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:10 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:07 am
Lhasa wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:55 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:42 am




they slept in a room which had a support of Tseringma in it. Well,
What does the word 'support' mean in this case? Garchen RInpoche just recently showed a poster like print he created, for Vajrakilaya practice and he called it a 'support'. What does this mean?
A support for ones practice, as it aids ones practice, for example in making offerings, or in helping one to visualize.
Or creating a portal for the deity to manifest?

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