Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

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MiphamFan
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Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:04 am

Hello,

Does anyone have an English translation of this text?

Thanks

narraboth
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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by narraboth » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:27 pm

I think it is actually a Mipham guruyoga terma... I might be able to translate

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Malcolm
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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:44 pm

narraboth wrote:I think it is actually a Mipham guruyoga terma... I might be able to translate
Depends, could be the Mañjuśrījñanasattva teachings KJP revealed at Five Peaked Mountain, along with his related concise Dzogchen cycle, Sanggye Lagchang.

This was translated by Barron and is available from Padma Publishing.
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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:02 am

The one I'm looking for is: 'jam dpal smra ba'i seng ge'i sgrub thabs bzhugs so

I have a Chinese translation but my Chinese is weak.

lama tsewang
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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by lama tsewang » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:29 am

its easy to get from padma publishing

MiphamFan
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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:49 am

I don't see any Manjushri texts on their site besides this: http://www.tibetantreasures.com/Empower ... ushri.html

Do I need to write to them? Are you sure they have this text? It's Lion-Headed Manjusri by Khenpo Jigphun.

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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:51 am

There's this: http://www.tibetantreasures.com/Empower ... Reach.html
but I don't know if it's what you're looking for.
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

narraboth
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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by narraboth » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:32 am

MiphamFan wrote:The one I'm looking for is: 'jam dpal smra ba'i seng ge'i sgrub thabs bzhugs so

I have a Chinese translation but my Chinese is weak.
I don't think there is such a text in Khenpo JP's work.
I believe the Chinese text you got is actually -- 'jam dpal smra ba'i seng ge'i sgrub thabs blo yi nyin byed -- made by Mipham Rinpoche?

Is the mantra a slightly longer one (not just 7 syllables)?

Could you copy and paste part of the chinese text (or put a photo) here if possible.

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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:06 pm

The mantra starts with

"Om hri dhi ma ...."

When I received it from Khenpo Tenzin Gyatso at Larung Gar he said something like “法王的文殊法”

I find Chinese translations of Tibetan difficult to read in general. It seems like they all want to be "literary", and try to make it fit into verse, at the expense of being clear. English translations are not in verse but they are much easier to understand.

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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by lama tsewang » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:34 pm

you make things difficult , if you really want this prasctice text phone padma publishing , you already mentioned the name of the manual that goes with it , buddha in the palm of the hand,
long distance is inexpensive
.
the mantra for the khenpos terma is om arapatsana dhi , not the other manjushri mantra
.
lama tsewang

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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by narraboth » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:47 am

MiphamFan wrote:The mantra starts with

"Om hri dhi ma ...."

When I received it from Khenpo Tenzin Gyatso at Larung Gar he said something like “法王的文殊法”

I find Chinese translations of Tibetan difficult to read in general. It seems like they all want to be "literary", and try to make it fit into verse, at the expense of being clear. English translations are not in verse but they are much easier to understand.
Hi, I am pretty convinced now that it is not Khenpo JP Rinpoche's own terma, it is Mipham's text.
Khen. JP RInpoche personally practiced this text and promoted this practice, maybe that's why he said something like that.

In this case, no point to contact padma publishing.

I don't know if anyone has translated this text into English, but as far as I know, the visualisation stages are basically the same as Marwey Senge sadhana in Sarma school...

As a Chinese, I think it's better to have translation in verse, it's not just because we want it to sound good, but because that's the way TIbetan text is. I guess since Tibetan and Chinese belong to the same lingustic family, it is easier to keep the original structure of the verses.

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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:14 pm

narraboth wrote: As a Chinese, I think it's better to have translation in verse, it's not just because we want it to sound good, but because that's the way TIbetan text is. I guess since Tibetan and Chinese belong to the same lingustic family, it is easier to keep the original structure of the verses.

Slightly off-topic, but I have heard Tibetan lamas who know both Tibetan and Chinese also complain that the way Chinese translators try to force it to be "literary" often makes the meaning unclear. Anyway generally in Nyingma you still recite in Tibetan so whether the translation is in verse or not does not matter that much, the important thing is the meaning. I am also ethnic Chinese.

Thanks for the info that it is Mipham's practice.

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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by narraboth » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:06 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
narraboth wrote: As a Chinese, I think it's better to have translation in verse, it's not just because we want it to sound good, but because that's the way TIbetan text is. I guess since Tibetan and Chinese belong to the same lingustic family, it is easier to keep the original structure of the verses.

Slightly off-topic, but I have heard Tibetan lamas who know both Tibetan and Chinese also complain that the way Chinese translators try to force it to be "literary" often makes the meaning unclear. Anyway generally in Nyingma you still recite in Tibetan so whether the translation is in verse or not does not matter that much, the important thing is the meaning. I am also ethnic Chinese.

Thanks for the info that it is Mipham's practice.
It could be true in some cases, but as a Tibetan-Chinese translator, it is not impossible to have good in verse translation, it's all depends on how good the translator knows Chinese. From my experience I found very rarely I have to break the verse to deliver the meaning. Both Chinese and Tibetan are all very flexible and they are many ways to play around it, I don't see in verse or not has definite influence on clarity. I personally think the translator's ability to handle the target language is more important.
I read some translation made by Tibetan lama who also knows chinese, some of them are quite good, some of them are .... well, you can tell that they want to make the meaning clear to them, but end up causing some issues to native Chinese readers. In the end it's less clear than a good in verse translation due to their poor Chinese.

When you try to 'make the meaning clear' by extend the sentence, it indeed has an effect to make the meaning more OBVIOUS to the readers. But is it really more CLEAR?
Some texts simply did not say certain things clear, which reserve the possibility of different intepretation. Even merely trying to extend the sentence, most of the cases are that the translator has to adopt a interpretation position on certain topics. I am not saying that if you do it in verse you can totally avoid this problem, but it can be less.
You always lose some preciseness when you translate, and it becomes more so if you try to extend the sentence 'to make it more clear'.
Surely, one has to kind of understand the meaning of the text before he can translate, otherwise the product will be like google or machine translated work. But I think we translators also need to be careful that our understanding might not be comprehensive enough, so better not to change the original appearance too much?
I personally like to keep the original sentence structure as long as it is still readable and understandable (for people who have enough knowledge of the topic, of course), not because that I am lazy (ok, i am a bit lazy :P ), but because interpretation and explanation are not translators' job. We have to, and we can not avoid to leave footprint of our own interpretation in our translation, but still, we need to realise that they are not our job.

For the Mipham's Manjusri text, I also have the Chinese translation, it is translated by a Khenpo I think. I myself think it's a quite clear in-verse translation. There's no big problem in that translation really (it is a rather straight forward text anyway). And the Chinese used in that translation is not even really ancient, it is just condensed (and precise). What troubles you is not the clarity of the translation itself, it's the language barrier. This is totally understable though.
Last edited by narraboth on Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by DGA » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:20 am

Malcolm wrote:
narraboth wrote:I think it is actually a Mipham guruyoga terma... I might be able to translate
Depends, could be the Mañjuśrījñanasattva teachings KJP revealed at Five Peaked Mountain, along with his related concise Dzogchen cycle, Sanggye Lagchang.

This was translated by Barron and is available from Padma Publishing.
Anyone know if this cycle is still taught and if so by whom?

thanks

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Re: Khenpo Jigphun Manjusri terma

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:08 am

It's probably still widely taught in Larung Gar.

Outside, you probably need to ask his students.

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