Dudjom Tersar question

madhusudan
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Dudjom Tersar question

Post by madhusudan » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:53 pm

I feel really fortunate to have connected to this authentic lineage. The wording of the ngondro is profound in the way that it condenses vast teachings into just a few words. I wonder about the statement that it is, "intended for those who do not understand or are unable to recite the extensive preliminary practices according to the New Treasure."

I'm wondering, is this a complete path? Or should one aspire to the "extensive preliminaries"? I guess I'm asking because I feel really suited to the concise presentation of the dharma in this terma and I want to commit to just one simple essence path. Thanks.

dzoki
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by dzoki » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:39 pm

madhusudan wrote:I feel really fortunate to have connected to this authentic lineage. The wording of the ngondro is profound in the way that it condenses vast teachings into just a few words. I wonder about the statement that it is, "intended for those who do not understand or are unable to recite the extensive preliminary practices according to the New Treasure."

I'm wondering, is this a complete path? Or should one aspire to the "extensive preliminaries"? I guess I'm asking because I feel really suited to the concise presentation of the dharma in this terma and I want to commit to just one simple essence path. Thanks.
It depends on what you mean by complete path.
In any case ngondro can be both preliminary and main practice. If you have received Thrinle Norbu Rinpoche´s commentary "A Cascading Waterfall of Nectar", then you have all you really need, if you want to commit to this practice for life.
If you are not so sure, maybe it would be good to explore different stages of vajrayana practice that are included in Dudjom Tersar.

madhusudan
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by madhusudan » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:01 pm

By complete I did intend to mean that after the preliminaries there are some other practices and teachings which would in their entirety be a complete path. I also have no problem keeping this practice forever. In fact, right now, just refuge seems like everything.

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by Tongnyid Dorje » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:24 pm

dont worry, its a complete ngondro, nothing is missing there. after that you will be adviced by your lama what to do next. usually there is Three Roots following, but you can also choose what is apropriate for you and concentrate on that alone. for me, i would like to continue with troma nagmo.

:namaste:

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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by madhusudan » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:22 pm

Thanks!

ngodrup
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by ngodrup » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:17 pm

Keep on counting.
Once you have completed this concise ngondro,
which is complete in itself, you may at your discretion,
and or advice of your Lama, do it again.

But, there are options-- you might choose to do the more extensive
"middle length" ngondro, the sa ter ngondro. Or, there's also the very beautiful
Throma Ngondro. Many people who have completed the concise, choose
to do a second, and specifically, the Throma Ngondro. Or if you have the
empowwerments, you might choose to continue with either Vajrakilaya
or Throma .. again at the collaboration and recommendation with your Lama.

There are all sorts of variations: I know one practitioner that was told to
go through the four aspects of Guru Rinpoche, after Ngondro. And I know another
who was told, just do something. ;) Anyway, it is quite common for DT practitioners
to complete two or more ngondros-- even Dudjom Rinpoche himself completed three,
with a total of 600,000 prostrations. So if he is any example... you know.

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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by dzinamitra » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:45 am

Tashi dele Ngodrup-la,

What people usually do after ngondro in Dudjom Tersar ? I mean what kind of practice in the 3 roots.

I have received some Dudjom Tersar wang and some teachings in that tradition 2 years ago and I began recently a new ngondro in this tradition, for the moment that's my main focus to complete this ngondro correctly. But usually after what kind of practice people does ? For exemple in Dudjom Tersar is people able to practice Dorje Drollö "seriously" just after completing Ngondro ? Or is there any sequence of peacefull practice of Guru Rinpoche practice to complete before ? I heared that Dudjom Rinpoche said usually people does Dorje Phurba just after to prevent obstacles and bring good condition for practice, but this advice seem related to the 3 years retreat program right ? When you says 4 aspect of Guru Rinpoche, is it a special aspect 4 in one, or 4 separate practices, like outer, inner, secret and very secret ?

In any case I will not make choice by myself, I never done that in Kagyu tradition, but I need to find a Lama in Dudjom Tersar now, the Lama who gift me these empowerments is very far away and not contactable. For the moment I put all my energy and freetime on ngondro letting away my Kagyu practices to enter by the begining in Dudjom Tersar.

I'm just asking questions and not asking advices to appy to my practice, that I will ask when I found a Lama.

Thank you very much.

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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:04 pm

madhusudan wrote:I feel really fortunate to have connected to this authentic lineage. The wording of the ngondro is profound in the way that it condenses vast teachings into just a few words. I wonder about the statement that it is, "intended for those who do not understand or are unable to recite the extensive preliminary practices according to the New Treasure."

I'm wondering, is this a complete path? Or should one aspire to the "extensive preliminaries"? I guess I'm asking because I feel really suited to the concise presentation of the dharma in this terma and I want to commit to just one simple essence path. Thanks.
The short ngondro is complete, it is just a condensed recitation for ease of use in these busy degenerate times. The original and longer, more elaborated Dudjom tersar ngondro is extremely profound, and has a slightly different order, some different melodies, and some different visualizations included. I highly recommend receiving a copy and getting the oral transmission, and doing this one when you have the time just to deepen your practice of the shorter one. Don't do it instead of the shorter one on a given day though, once you start accumulating in the short one, you need to keep the continuity of that one going every day, at least once a day. There is also a commentary on the longer one written by HH Dudjom Rinpoche and translated into English now available.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:56 pm

dzinamitra wrote:Tashi dele Ngodrup-la,

What people usually do after ngondro in Dudjom Tersar ? I mean what kind of practice in the 3 roots.
3 roots in Dudjom Tersar are as follows:

1. Dakini = Khandro Thuktig (Yeshe Tsogyal)

2. Guru = Tsokye Thuktig (Lake Born Vajra - Guru Rinpoche)

3. Yidam = Dorje Phurba (Vajrakilaya)


So if you were to follow the traditional Dudjom Tersar path you would finish ngondro, then do a retreat on the dakini, complete that, then move on to the guru retreat, and then the yidam. There are specific numbers of the mantras to accumulate, and signs to look for, etc.

Not all Gurus of the Dudjom Tersar will expect you to go through this sequence precisely, due to their discernment of your karma and proclivities to certain practices, etc. Some will expect all of their students to go through the traditional process strictly, it varies. You may take one of these as your main practice, for your life. However there are also quite elaborate cycles such as the Troma cycle (found within the larger Dakini cycle) which some people enter after the three roots, or some people just enter initially and begin with the Troma ngondro.
In any case I will not make choice by myself, I never done that in Kagyu tradition, but I need to find a Lama in Dudjom Tersar now, the Lama who gift me these empowerments is very far away and not contactable. For the moment I put all my energy and freetime on ngondro letting away my Kagyu practices to enter by the begining in Dudjom Tersar.

I'm just asking questions and not asking advices to appy to my practice, that I will ask when I found a Lama.
Three of the most senior and unparalleled Dudjom Lamas residing and teaching in the West are Dungse Shenphen Dawa Norbu Rinpoche (HH Dudjom Rinpoche's own son) who is in New York, Archarya Dawa Chodaak Rinpoche who is based in Lansing Iowa but who travels to teach often (he goes to France later this year, if you are in Europe), and Bhakha Tulku Rinpoche who is based in Southern California. It is quite powerful to receive teachings and transmissions from this elder generation of Tibetan Lamas. We have lost many great senior Nyingma masters in the last few years and these three are precious jewels that compassionately remain with us. I pray they remain for many many more years.

There are also the grandsons of HH Dudjom Rinpoche, all great teachers in their own right- such as Garab Dorje Rinpoche, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, and Tulku Namgyal Dawa Rinpoche(he is more hidden). There is also Kathok Situ Rinpoche but he mostly remains in Bhutan.

Then there is the Tibetan Dudjom Yangsi Sangye Pema Shepa, who you could find in Nepal, India or Tibet who AFAIK still has not left that region and who doesn't speak English still. Then there is the Bhutanese Dudjom Yangsi Tenzin Yeshe Dorje who speaks flawless English and has traveled to the West a few times, the USA twice and Europe at least once. . .

There's other Tersar Lamas out there, of course. . the above are just some essential core ones that you can't go wrong by connecting with, in fact you could only go right!






I have received some Dudjom Tersar wang and some teachings in that tradition 2 years ago and I began recently a new ngondro in this tradition, for the moment that's my main focus to complete this ngondro correctly.


Who did you receive the wang from?
But usually after what kind of practice people does ?
The three roots outlined above.

For exemple in Dudjom Tersar is people able to practice Dorje Drollö "seriously" just after completing Ngondro ? Or is there any sequence of peacefull practice of Guru Rinpoche practice to complete before ?
Dorje Drollo is within the Guru cycle, but it is not generally given or permitted until one is quite advanced on the path. It is perhaps the most secretive and protected practice within this terma.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Malcolm
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:51 pm

madhusudan wrote:I feel really fortunate to have connected to this authentic lineage. The wording of the ngondro is profound in the way that it condenses vast teachings into just a few words. I wonder about the statement that it is, "intended for those who do not understand or are unable to recite the extensive preliminary practices according to the New Treasure."

I'm wondering, is this a complete path? Or should one aspire to the "extensive preliminaries"? I guess I'm asking because I feel really suited to the concise presentation of the dharma in this terma and I want to commit to just one simple essence path. Thanks.
The Dudjom Tersar ngondro is a complete path. The extensive ngondro states explicitly states that one needs no other practice besides it.

In Dudjom's Rinpoche collected works, in the volume that contains the extensive ngondro and its commentary, the two main practice manuals for practicing Dzogchen are found directly after it. If you follow this system, you don't really need any other practices at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Dorje Drollo is within the Guru cycle, but it is not generally given or permitted until one is quite advanced on the path. It is perhaps the most secretive and protected practice within this terma.

Hahahahaha, this was the very first empowerment I ever received in Nyingma...other than the Khon KIlaya....
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by Tongnyid Dorje » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:00 pm

dzinamitra, where are you from?

may be this list can help you to find teacher:

https://github.com/PemaGelek/Dudjom-Tersar

ngodrup
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by ngodrup » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:39 pm

It is not all that unusual to practice Vajrakilaya
simultaneously with ngondro. DD is sometimes
given early or near the beginning. And the same
is true for Throma. Although there is a general
structure, most practitioners will not be entering
three year retreat, so individual path is specific.

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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Dorje Drollo is within the Guru cycle, but it is not generally given or permitted until one is quite advanced on the path. It is perhaps the most secretive and protected practice within this terma.

Hahahahaha, this was the very first empowerment I ever received in Nyingma...other than the Khon KIlaya....
I'm guessing not the Dudjom-- was it Kunzang Dechen Lingpa's Drollo terma you're referring to? I think I was at the same wang with you in Vermont.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:58 pm

ngodrup wrote:It is not all that unusual to practice Vajrakilaya
simultaneously with ngondro. DD is sometimes
given early or near the beginning. And the same
is true for Throma. Although there is a general
structure, most practitioners will not be entering
three year retreat, so individual path is specific.
Any practices might be given to an individual depending on the Lamas
insight into their proclivities from other lives. But it's not customary
in the tersar to give Drollo or Troma in the beginning, before three roots. There's some
particular sublineages that just focus on Troma, then that becomes it's own custom. For instance,
Namkha Cho Dzong lineage tracing from Dudjom Lingpa to Delgyal Rinpoche to Golok Serta Rinpoche and all
his many disciples-- such as the recently late Siva Lodro Rinpoche, and his brothers like Pema Rigtsal
Rinpoche -- for the most part anyone in their system will start with Troma, and live and
breathe Troma from the beginning to the end.


But the OP was asking about the general framework.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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heart
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by heart » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:09 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Dorje Drollo is within the Guru cycle, but it is not generally given or permitted until one is quite advanced on the path. It is perhaps the most secretive and protected practice within this terma.

Hahahahaha, this was the very first empowerment I ever received in Nyingma...other than the Khon KIlaya....
I'm guessing not the Dudjom-- was it Kunzang Dechen Lingpa's Drollo terma you're referring to? I think I was at the same wang with you in Vermont.
Lama Pema Dorje gave the Dudjom Drollo wang here in Stockholm to anyone that came. A friend that done a lot of Dudjom Tersar said he was very surprised.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:17 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Dorje Drollo is within the Guru cycle, but it is not generally given or permitted until one is quite advanced on the path. It is perhaps the most secretive and protected practice within this terma.

Hahahahaha, this was the very first empowerment I ever received in Nyingma...other than the Khon KIlaya....
I'm guessing not the Dudjom-- was it Kunzang Dechen Lingpa's Drollo terma you're referring to? I think I was at the same wang with you in Vermont.
No, I am referring the full Dudjom Drollo empowerment granted by Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje in 1992 in Newton, Ma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:22 pm

heart wrote:Lama Pema Dorje gave the Dudjom Drollo wang here in Stockholm to anyone that came.
He did the same recently at Pema Osel Ling here in Northern California.
Taking the attitude that the phenomenal world is sacred is the first and last practice of all. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:25 pm

ngodrup wrote:Anyway, it is quite common for DT practitioners
to complete two or more ngondros-- even Dudjom Rinpoche himself completed three,
with a total of 600,000 prostrations. So if he is any example... you know.
BTW, according to "Light of Fearless Indestructible Wisdom", the last two sets of 200,000 prostrations consisted of "short prostrations".
Taking the attitude that the phenomenal world is sacred is the first and last practice of all. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

dzinamitra
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Re: Dudjom Tersar question

Post by dzinamitra » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:54 pm

Hello of you,

Thank you very much for your swifts responses.

I received Dudjom Tersar wang and lung mainly from Lopon Orgyen Tenzin Rinpoche and 2 other empowerments from Lama Pema Dorje Rinpoche. And I received aswell Dudul WangDrak Dorje Drollö wang at the second initiation by Lopon Orgyen Tenzin in this tradition.

Yes I ask for the general framework because I did 15 years of practice in Karma Kagyu tradition who works very differently and since many years hearth blossomed just by hearring the name of Dudjom and finally I took contact with the lineage and directly after I wanted to deep my practice in this tradition make this one my main practice. So I practiced the wangs I received (mainly Dorje Drollö lejang and gyunkhyer) according to my knowledge and reading nyenyig from Dudjom Rinpoche's sungbum. But I stoped very recently, thinking it was perharps better to do a new ngondro in this tradition and I began a new Ngondro in Dujom Tersar keeping different tsok practice on 10th and 25th days and 3 days of Putri RekPhung at home before Losar. But finally I don't know, I don't received wisdom advice from the Lama.

But as all you said that depend on the individual and you are all right... I know that, but I have to find a Lama who can give guidance. I don't blame Lama who gift me generously these wangs, in opposite I'm very gratefull aswell as the time was missing for personal advices.

I'm living in Europe, precisely in Switzerland. I never traveled to US, that was a lot of time I wanted to meet Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche, I hope one time and you are right, time is hurry up.

Anybody knows Lama Tenzin Samphel who is living in France ?

Thank you very much for your help.

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