Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:01 am

Mother's Lap wrote:Also,

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... opa#p59340
Adamantine wrote:P.S. I am generally much more fond of Muktananda's own guru, Bhagawan Nityananda... he seemed a truly selfless saint, totally detached from any worldly concerns. And certainly a siddha. I spent a couple weeks in Ganeshpuri once and talked to many old students of his, they universally had great awe and devotion and gratitude for him, and all he had done for them- -there were many great stories... incidentally, apparently Karmapa mentioned something along the lines of Nityananda holding the southern lineage of Naropa.
There's an interesting chapter in Levine's "The Miraculous 16th Karmapa" about his meeting with Muktananda. It is mentioned there that "he (the Karmapa) is reported to have said that Muktananda was an emanation of Tilopa; while Muktananda considered Karmapa to be “a great mahasiddha.” Here's a picture from the book:

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Re: Chatral Rinpoche's passing

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:20 am

mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:
Not sure about the babas in question, but Gendun Chophel reports meeting Indian tantrikas that were practicing Cakrasamvara in the 1930s.
OK, thanks for the info. Do you have a reference?
Not with my books now, but I think it is referred to in the intro of Madman's Middle Way by Lopez.
I had a look through that book, and I found this in chapter 1:
Thus, GC’s description of modern India is not an unmitigated lament. Unlike so many others who mourned the death of the dharma in the land of its birth, he insisted that the true practice of Buddhism had never disappeared; it was always there, if one only knew where to look:
One evening I was wandering in the forest when I saw a naked woman with many different bones tied to her body. By following her I arrived at a cave. By hiding myself, I could watch. Male and female yogins sat face to face and practiced samadhi. I saw them kiss and embrace and perform many rites. It is said that at times they laugh so loudly, “Ha ha,” that the rocks in the cave might fall. They are apparently yogins who practice the path of desire. They said that they were Buddhists, because in that region there actually is an unbroken tradition of instruction in Buddhist mantra. I saw this recently, this very year.40
Footnote 40 reads as follows:
Dge ’dun chos ’phel, Rgyal khams rig pas bskor ba’i gtam rgyud gser gyi thang ma (smad cha). In Dge ’dun chos ’phel gyi gsung rtsom 2:181–82
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by mañjughoṣamaṇi » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:15 am

Norwegian wrote:I recall Malcolm having mentioned before that Khunu Rinpoche also met Indian tantrikas that were practicing Cakrasamvara. I don't remember the source for this.
I might be conflating this with the Gendun Chophel account.
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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by ngodrup » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:17 pm

Well the Sutras mention quite a lots of "Hindu"
(or proto Hindu) deities.

Certainly there are astrological deities.
Kyabjuk (Vishnu), Lha Chen (Siva) Tsogdak (Ganesh)
are all pretty prominent. I know of one dedication prayer
with uses the Life of Rama as literary reference and metaphor
for victory of truth in "the dark ages" like this.

So there is quite a lot to honor, respect, be inspired by...

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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by Adamantine » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:35 pm

ngodrup wrote:Well the Sutras mention quite a lots of "Hindu"
(or proto Hindu) deities.

Certainly there are astrological deities.
Kyabjuk (Vishnu), Lha Chen (Siva) Tsogdak (Ganesh)
are all pretty prominent. I know of one dedication prayer
with uses the Life of Rama as literary reference and metaphor
for victory of truth in "the dark ages" like this.

So there is quite a lot to honor, respect, be inspired by...
Yeah you need to look no further than the Tashi Tsigpa praise to the 8 noble auspicious ones which is recited before pretty much any practice or activity in the Nyingma, to find homage to "the great Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, and Indra;" here is a link to one translation: http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... cious-ones Here is the excerpt:
ཚངས་པ་ཆེན་པོ་བདེ་འབྱུང་སྲེད་མེད་བུ། །
tsangpa chenpo dejung semebu
Mighty Brahmā, Śiva2 and Viṣṇu,

མིག་སྟོང་ལྡན་དང་རྒྱལ་པོ་ཡུལ་འཁོར་སྲུང་། །
mik tong den dang gyalpo yulkhor sung
Indra the thousand-eyed, the kings Dhṛtarāṣṭra,

འཕགས་སྐྱེས་པོ་དང་ཀླུ་དབང་མིག་མི་བཟང་། །
pak kyepo dang luwang mikmizang
Virūdhaka, Virūpakṣa the lord of nāgas,

རྣམ་ཐོས་སྲས་ཏེ་ལྷ་རྫས་འཁོར་ལོ་དང་། །
namtösé té lhadzé khorlo dang
And Vaiśravaṇa—each one holding your divine emblem:

ཏྲི་ཤཱུ་ལ་དང་མདུང་ཐུང་རྡོ་རྗེ་ཅན། །
trishula dang dungtung dorjé chen
Wheel, trident, lance, vajra,

པི་ཝཾ་རལ་གྲི་མཆོད་རྟེན་རྒྱལ་མཚན་འཛིན། །
piwam raldri chöten gyaltsen dzin
Vīṇā, sword, stūpa and banner of victory—

ས་གསུམ་གནས་སུ་དགེ་ལེགས་བཀྲ་ཤིས་སྤེལ། །
sa sum né su gelek tashi pel
Homage to you, the Eight Guardians of the World,

འཇིག་རྟེན་སྐྱོང་བ་བརྒྱད་ལ་ཕྱག་འཚལ་ལོ། །
jikten kyongwa gyé la chaktsal lo
Who make auspiciousness and positivity grow in the three realms!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:55 pm

ngodrup wrote:Certainly there are astrological deities.
Kyabjuk (Vishnu)
Apparently that Kyabjuk is actually Rahu(la), see: http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 ... =10#p34851
Adamantine wrote:Yeah you need to look no further than the Tashi Tsigpa praise to the 8 noble auspicious ones which is recited before pretty much any practice or activity in the Nyingma, to find homage to "the great Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, and Indra;" here is a link to one translation: http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... cious-ones Here is the excerpt:
ཚངས་པ་ཆེན་པོ་བདེ་འབྱུང་སྲེད་མེད་བུ། །
tsangpa chenpo dejung semebu
Mighty Brahmā, Śiva2 and Viṣṇu
Interesting. According to footnote 2 of the above, Viṣṇu is called Nārāyaṇa in that verse, and apparently 'Nārāyaṇa' in Tibetan is 'srad med bu'. I don't seem to find the latter expression in the dictionaries though. Does anyone know why 'Nārāyaṇa' = 'srad med bu'?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by Karinos » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:01 pm

Hindu deities like Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva (Mahesvara), Agni, Vayu, Varuna, Yama, Surya, Chandra, Kubera, Ganapati etc. etc. are also protectors of many HAYT mandalas (i.e. Vajrabhaiarava, Mahakala, Chaturpitha) they have their respective places in mandala and are subjects of offerings, veneration and requests.

There are so many deities who are in both traditions:
just to mention few:
- Sarasvati - Yangchenma,
- Lakshmi - Palchenmo,
- Tara - Dolma,
- Kali - Troma,
- Kali Dhumavati - Palden Lhamo Dudsolma,
- Shiva/Mahesvara and Parvati - LhaChenpo,
- Vaisravana - Namtyse,
- Ganesha/Ganapati - Tsogdak,
- Buddha himself (in hindu is considered emanation of Vishnu),

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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by Kunzang » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:05 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
ngodrup wrote:Certainly there are astrological deities.
Kyabjuk (Vishnu)
Apparently that Kyabjuk is actually Rahu(la), see: http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 ... =10#p34851
Adamantine wrote:Yeah you need to look no further than the Tashi Tsigpa praise to the 8 noble auspicious ones which is recited before pretty much any practice or activity in the Nyingma, to find homage to "the great Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, and Indra;" here is a link to one translation: http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... cious-ones Here is the excerpt:
ཚངས་པ་ཆེན་པོ་བདེ་འབྱུང་སྲེད་མེད་བུ། །
tsangpa chenpo dejung semebu
Mighty Brahmā, Śiva2 and Viṣṇu
Interesting. According to footnote 2 of the above, Viṣṇu is called Nārāyaṇa in that verse, and apparently 'Nārāyaṇa' in Tibetan is 'srad med bu'. I don't seem to find the latter expression in the dictionaries though. Does anyone know why 'Nārāyaṇa' = 'srad med bu'?
It's sred med bu, not srad med bu. :oops: In the old Chandra Das dictionary p. 1295 it has the Devanagari for narayana; then says "an epithet for Vishnu"
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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:40 pm

What about Vedic era deities which are no longer venerated in mainstream Hinduism such as Indra?

Sakra/Indra is still venerated in East Asian Buddhism IIRC but does he or any other Vedic deity appear in Secret Mantra?

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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:20 pm

Kunzang wrote:It's sred med bu, not srad med bu. :oops: In the old Chandra Das dictionary p. 1295 it has the Devanagari for narayana; then says "an epithet for Vishnu"
:oops: indeed, I guess my eyes are going. :smile:

I guess 'sred' means something like attachment so "sred med bu" would mean something like "one without attachment" but I'm wondering why that would be the translation of 'Narayana'.
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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:23 pm

Oh yeah Saraswati is Vedic, as is Agni. Any other Vedic deities?

Vishnu and Rudra are very peripheral in the Vedas.

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Re: Chatral Rinpoche's passing

Post by Tsultrim T. » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:44 am

tepp01 wrote:Seems there was also a story about the Shiva temple

Semo Saraswati-la told us something about it, that it was Rinpoche's temple, something like that
A close friend of mine was staying at the house for about 6 months last year. He said that HH Rinpoche would frequently need someone to take offering to local Hindu temples to ask for pujas to be performed in order to remove obstacles, sometimes in the the middle of the night. I think it is pretty well know that HH Rinpoche both honored Hindu deities and performed their practices.

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Re: Chatral Rinpoche's passing

Post by _R_ » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:47 pm

mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: Interesting. Do you happen to know what particular Vajrayana practice or lineage these babas are connected to?
Not sure about the babas in question, but Gendun Chophel reports meeting Indian tantrikas that were practicing Cakrasamvara in the 1930s.
Didn't all of the mahasiddhas practice Chakrasamvara? And theydid have the outer appearance of sadhus.
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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:36 am

It it taught in the Guhyasamaja tantra, that Shiva, Vishnu, and brahma, are emanations of Chenrezi, Manjushri, and vajrapani, (though they manifest in the form of worldly protector's)
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Re: Chatral Rinpoche's passing

Post by kirtu » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:06 pm

_R_ wrote:
mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: Interesting. Do you happen to know what particular Vajrayana practice or lineage these babas are connected to?
Not sure about the babas in question, but Gendun Chophel reports meeting Indian tantrikas that were practicing Cakrasamvara in the 1930s.
Didn't all of the mahasiddhas practice Chakrasamvara? And theydid have the outer appearance of sadhus.
No, not all. But most (at least in Dowman's translation "Buddha's Lions: The Lives of the Eighty-Four Siddhas").

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Re: Chatral Rinpoche's passing

Post by Arijit » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:32 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: OK, thanks for the info. Do you have a reference?
Not with my books now, but I think it is referred to in the intro of Madman's Middle Way by Lopez.
I had a look through that book, and I found this in chapter 1:
Thus, GC’s description of modern India is not an unmitigated lament. Unlike so many others who mourned the death of the dharma in the land of its birth, he insisted that the true practice of Buddhism had never disappeared; it was always there, if one only knew where to look:
One evening I was wandering in the forest when I saw a naked woman with many different bones tied to her body. By following her I arrived at a cave. By hiding myself, I could watch. Male and female yogins sat face to face and practiced samadhi. I saw them kiss and embrace and perform many rites. It is said that at times they laugh so loudly, “Ha ha,” that the rocks in the cave might fall. They are apparently yogins who practice the path of desire. They said that they were Buddhists, because in that region there actually is an unbroken tradition of instruction in Buddhist mantra. I saw this recently, this very year.40
Footnote 40 reads as follows:
Dge ’dun chos ’phel, Rgyal khams rig pas bskor ba’i gtam rgyud gser gyi thang ma (smad cha). In Dge ’dun chos ’phel gyi gsung rtsom 2:181–82
I have a sneaky feeling that the Buddhist Siddha tradition is alive and well in the Bauls of Bengal. It is an unbroken oral tradition and I seem to recall reading that the Baul path has a pūrvaka or Ngondro, the core practice is Guru Yoga, has secret Sādhanā practices - some very similar to Vajrayana practices. The baul path relies on consort based practices as well.

Wikipedia summarizes thus,
Their religion is based on an expression of the body (Deho Sadhana), and an expression of the mind (Mana Sadhana). Some of their rituals are kept hidden[citation needed] from outsiders, as they might be thought to be repulsive or hedonistic. Bauls concentrate much of their mystic energies on the four body fluids, on the nine-doors (openings of the body), on prakriti as "nature" or "primal motive force", and on breath Sadhana.
While the parallels are interesting, I am not claiming them to be Buddhists. Bauls anyway defy labels; even the more contentious divide between Hindu and Muslim.

In an interesting confluence, here is one of my favourite baul practitioners singing a Charyapada from the buddhist mahasiddha Kambala written in proto-Bengali (7th century?).
phpBB [video]

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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by Adamantine » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:44 am

From what I know of the Bauls music is the thread of their
universal mystic approach and so they embrace Buddhist Hindu and Muslim/Sufi aspects / views and songs into their stream.. (Just as music is found in all these traditions... not particular to any one)
It'd be a leap to assume they are essentially hidden Buddhists
re: view and conduct and only outwardly displaying affinities with Hindu and Muslim themes out of skillful means but
I suppose anything is possible. One thing is for certain though: the Baul tradition is a beautiful source/container of spiritually informed music and performance.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by DGA » Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:01 pm

With regard to the Heaven of the Thirty-Three: is this only a name for a space in which there are many more than thirty-three devas, or do the thirty-three devas categorized in the various Hindu systems have pride of place? Once upon a time I had this idea that the asta-vasu (elementals) had something to do with the elements as understood in one Buddhist system or another (or was it Bon?), but this is all very fuzzy and probably a work of confusion on the part of my memory. Anybody want to set me right?

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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:04 pm

Theoretically you could incorporate the practice of ANY deity, especially at the level of worldly protector, into Vajrayana if you can maintain the view.
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Re: Hindu Deities in Tibetan Nyingma

Post by Zla'od » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:45 pm

Honoring other religions is only right, and if (for example) one is attracted to aspects of Hinduism or Islam, it is only natural to perceive them as sharing, on some level, the same ideals. This ought to be particularly true for converts from other religions--better to find some way of integrating our heritage, than to reject it as a false or "lower" teaching. On the other hand, it would be (shall we say) less than skillful to appropriate other religions in a way that offends their followers, especially when this is likely to provoke violence (as has been known to happen in Bangladesh). So maybe keep your syncretism on the down-low!
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