Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Malcolm
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm »

KrisW wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.

As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.

But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.
Is the tonwang of the namcho shitro sufficient, or are you mentioning a specific shitro empowerment?
In ChNN's system Dzogchen transmission is all you need, and then the lung and khrid for a given deity.
Lhasa
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Lhasa »

Does khrid need to be live in person, or if the Lama says read this book, it's good enough?
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Josef
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Josef »

Lhasa wrote:Does khrid need to be live in person, or if the Lama says read this book, it's good enough?
If the lama is instructing you to gain clarification from a textual source the lama probably considers that sufficient.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Malcolm
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm »

Lhasa wrote:Does khrid need to be live in person, or if the Lama says read this book, it's good enough?

If the guru says read this book it is enough.
pema tsultrim
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by pema tsultrim »

When and where did Bhakha Tulku give the Guhyagarbha wang? I never heard about it. As he is one of my primary teachers, I would have loved to receive it from him.

P.T.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 pmSame with Vajrayogini. Receiving Vajrayogini in Kagyu, does not qualify you to practice Naro Khachö in Sakya, even though the mantra is identical
How was this done in india before there was kagyu and sakya?

Is this because the transmission or the sadhana come to the lineage masters directly from from the deity?

Geoffrey Samuel in his book Introducing Tibetan Buddhism (page 71) puts it this way:
Since Tantric practice is always performed within a specific lineage of transmission that authorizes the practice.....the practicioner is niot invoking Avalokiteśvara in general but a specific from of Avalokiteśvara with whom he or she has established a bond through the ritual empowerment
Is this why one who receives empowerment form kagyu shouldn't practice the sakya sadhana?
It seems very odd since both came from naropa....?
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Fortyeightvows »

also what is 'khrid'? the instructions?
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heart
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by heart »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 am also what is 'khrid'? the instructions?
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/khrid

/magnus
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Malcolm
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:29 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 pmSame with Vajrayogini. Receiving Vajrayogini in Kagyu, does not qualify you to practice Naro Khachö in Sakya, even though the mantra is identical
How was this done in india before there was kagyu and sakya?

Is this because the transmission or the sadhana come to the lineage masters directly from from the deity?
There are important differences in these two lineages concerning how the empowerments are given, instructions, and so on.
Malcolm
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm »

pema tsultrim wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:35 am When and where did Bhakha Tulku give the Guhyagarbha wang? I never heard about it. As he is one of my primary teachers, I would have loved to receive it from him.

P.T.
Bakha Tullku gave the Guhyagarbha Wang at his house in Berkely, CA in 1992.
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Kilaya.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Kilaya. »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:22 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:29 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 pmSame with Vajrayogini. Receiving Vajrayogini in Kagyu, does not qualify you to practice Naro Khachö in Sakya, even though the mantra is identical
How was this done in india before there was kagyu and sakya?

Is this because the transmission or the sadhana come to the lineage masters directly from from the deity?
There are important differences in these two lineages concerning how the empowerments are given, instructions, and so on.
Can you elaborate on the main differences, please?
Look at those charlatans, madly engaged
in fervent argument.
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Yeti
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Yeti »

heart wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?

/magnus

Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
Maybe I don't understand but are you saying that if you have the Shitro empowerment you don't need a Khrodha Kali empowerment to practice Khrodha Kali, for example in the Dudjom tradition?

/magnus
In my own case, one of my teachers was giving teachings on the Shitro/Bardo from Karma Lingpa. I asked if the Shitro from the Nyingma Kahma qualified me for those teachings. He said no, because the NK Shitro only had Maha and Anu yoga, where as the Karma Lingpa Shitro had an Ati section, which were the source of the teachings he was giving. Just saying,...
"People are fond of saying all sorts of things about others behind their backs, mentioning their names again and again. Instead of slandering others in this way, “slander” the yidam: utter his name repeatedly by reciting his mantra all the time." - Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche - Zurchungpa’s Testament - Shambhala Publications
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