Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
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Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
Hi there,
I got a question: I received the empowerment of Krodha Kali / Troma Nagmo during the Dam NGAG DZO empowerments (CHOD-Zhije) that I received from DKR. Now I am mostly practicing Dudjom Tersar and was thinking does this empowerment also service as a basis for the practice of Troma Nakmo of Dudjom Lingpa?
Thank you,
Pepijn
I got a question: I received the empowerment of Krodha Kali / Troma Nagmo during the Dam NGAG DZO empowerments (CHOD-Zhije) that I received from DKR. Now I am mostly practicing Dudjom Tersar and was thinking does this empowerment also service as a basis for the practice of Troma Nakmo of Dudjom Lingpa?
Thank you,
Pepijn
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
If the text is different, I imagine you will need a lung.Bodhi Bhadra wrote:Hi there,
I got a question: I received the empowerment of Krodha Kali / Troma Nagmo during the Dam NGAG DZO empowerments (CHOD-Zhije) that I received from DKR. Now I am mostly practicing Dudjom Tersar and was thinking does this empowerment also service as a basis for the practice of Troma Nakmo of Dudjom Lingpa?
Thank you,
Pepijn
Do you mean: "Do I need the empowerment of Throma Nagmo from the Dudjom Tersar?"
Well, this is probably a question better asked of your (Dudjom lineage) teacher.
There may be subtle differences in the visualisation of the deity, though, of course the essence is identical.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
No. It does not. The lineage is completely different.Bodhi Bhadra wrote:Hi there,
I got a question: I received the empowerment of Krodha Kali / Troma Nagmo during the Dam NGAG DZO empowerments (CHOD-Zhije) that I received from DKR. Now I am mostly practicing Dudjom Tersar and was thinking does this empowerment also service as a basis for the practice of Troma Nakmo of Dudjom Lingpa?
Thank you,
Pepijn
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
Since when are Yidam and their activities lineage specific? Is the Dudjom Tersar Thorma Nagmo a different Throma Nagmo to the one Pepijn received? Does this hold true just for Throma Nagmo or for every Yidam empowerment that is not "shared"?Malcolm wrote:No. It does not. The lineage is completely different.
Seems sort of weird to me...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.Grigoris wrote:Since when are Yidam and their activities lineage specific? Is the Dudjom Tersar Thorma Nagmo a different Throma Nagmo to the one Pepijn received? Does this hold true just for Throma Nagmo or for every Yidam empowerment that is not "shared"?Malcolm wrote:No. It does not. The lineage is completely different.
Seems sort of weird to me...
For example, on the basis of receiving Hevajra in Sakya, one cannot practice the Ngok lugs tradition from Marpa and vice versa. Same with Vajrayogini. Receiving Vajrayogini in Kagyu, does not qualify you to practice Naro Khachö in Sakya, even though the mantra is identical.
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.Malcolm wrote:The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.
As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.
But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.Grigoris wrote:This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.Malcolm wrote:The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.
As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.
But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
Thank you for this clarification.Malcolm wrote:The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.Grigoris wrote:This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.Malcolm wrote:The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.
As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.
But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
Norbu Rinpoche and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa's view (and other Dzogchen masters) is that if you have received Dzogchen transmission, all you need is the lung and khrid, you do not even need a formal wang. Since Dzogchen transmission is the essence of all empowerments.Grigoris wrote:Thank you for this clarification.Malcolm wrote:The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.Grigoris wrote:This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.
As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.
But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
The two main Dudjom Tersar Drolo practices discovered by Dudjom Rinpoche have the same lineage, the same mandala (pretty much), and the same mantra, but require different empowerments. Always wondered why but if it's like that with one Dudjom Tersar yidam, I imagine it would be the same for others. The two tersar Vajrakilaya practices also require separate empowerments, but they are more different than the two Drolo practices.
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
michaelb wrote:The two main Dudjom Tersar Drolo practices discovered by Dudjom Rinpoche have the same lineage, the same mandala (pretty much), and the same mantra, but require different empowerments. Always wondered why but if it's like that with one Dudjom Tersar yidam, I imagine it would be the same for others. The two tersar Vajrakilaya practices also require separate empowerments, but they are more different than the two Drolo practices.
With respect to those two Drollo wangs, one is more related to mahāyoga and the other is more related to anuyoga.
When I received this from Ngagoa Yeshe Dorje, however, he combined the two empowerments together.
M
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?Malcolm wrote:The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
heart wrote:I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?Malcolm wrote:The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid.
/magnus
Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
I that man.Malcolm wrote: Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
id say yes and no on this one. talk with your lama. I dont think it is black and whiteThe two tersar Vajrakilaya practices also require separate empowerments,
without a doubt, as Malcolm said, thoma needs the wang, lung andf tri
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
Maybe I don't understand but are you saying that if you have the Shitro empowerment you don't need a Khrodha Kali empowerment to practice Khrodha Kali, for example in the Dudjom tradition?Malcolm wrote:heart wrote:I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?Malcolm wrote:The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid.
/magnus
Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
According to my understanding, if you have a major Shitro empowerment, it covers all deities because all yidams are included in the 100 peaceful and wrathful deities. Of course it is better to have the wang, but it is not completely necessary.heart wrote:Maybe I don't understand but are you saying that if you have the Shitro empowerment you don't need a Khrodha Kali empowerment to practice Khrodha Kali, for example in the Dudjom tradition?Malcolm wrote:heart wrote:
I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?
/magnus
Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
/magnus
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
Malcolm wrote:According to my understanding, if you have a major Shitro empowerment, it covers all deities because all yidams are included in the 100 peaceful and wrathful deities. Of course it is better to have the wang, but it is not completely necessary.heart wrote:Maybe I don't understand but are you saying that if you have the Shitro empowerment you don't need a Khrodha Kali empowerment to practice Khrodha Kali, for example in the Dudjom tradition?Malcolm wrote:
Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
/magnus
Are there minor Shitro empowerments?
which ones?
Lost In Transmission
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
I was under the impression that there is a Shitro empowerment that covers all 100, am I mistaken?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar
Is the tonwang of the namcho shitro sufficient, or are you mentioning a specific shitro empowerment?Malcolm wrote:The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.Grigoris wrote:This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.Malcolm wrote:The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.
As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.
But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines