Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Bodhi Bhadra
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Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Bodhi Bhadra » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:05 am

Hi there,

I got a question: I received the empowerment of Krodha Kali / Troma Nagmo during the Dam NGAG DZO empowerments (CHOD-Zhije) that I received from DKR. Now I am mostly practicing Dudjom Tersar and was thinking does this empowerment also service as a basis for the practice of Troma Nakmo of Dudjom Lingpa?

Thank you,

Pepijn :alien:

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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:27 pm

Bodhi Bhadra wrote:Hi there,

I got a question: I received the empowerment of Krodha Kali / Troma Nagmo during the Dam NGAG DZO empowerments (CHOD-Zhije) that I received from DKR. Now I am mostly practicing Dudjom Tersar and was thinking does this empowerment also service as a basis for the practice of Troma Nakmo of Dudjom Lingpa?

Thank you,

Pepijn :alien:
If the text is different, I imagine you will need a lung.

Do you mean: "Do I need the empowerment of Throma Nagmo from the Dudjom Tersar?"

Well, this is probably a question better asked of your (Dudjom lineage) teacher.

There may be subtle differences in the visualisation of the deity, though, of course the essence is identical.
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Malcolm
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:52 pm

Bodhi Bhadra wrote:Hi there,

I got a question: I received the empowerment of Krodha Kali / Troma Nagmo during the Dam NGAG DZO empowerments (CHOD-Zhije) that I received from DKR. Now I am mostly practicing Dudjom Tersar and was thinking does this empowerment also service as a basis for the practice of Troma Nakmo of Dudjom Lingpa?

Thank you,

Pepijn :alien:
No. It does not. The lineage is completely different.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:No. It does not. The lineage is completely different.
Since when are Yidam and their activities lineage specific? Is the Dudjom Tersar Thorma Nagmo a different Throma Nagmo to the one Pepijn received? Does this hold true just for Throma Nagmo or for every Yidam empowerment that is not "shared"?

Seems sort of weird to me...
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No. It does not. The lineage is completely different.
Since when are Yidam and their activities lineage specific? Is the Dudjom Tersar Thorma Nagmo a different Throma Nagmo to the one Pepijn received? Does this hold true just for Throma Nagmo or for every Yidam empowerment that is not "shared"?

Seems sort of weird to me...
The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.

For example, on the basis of receiving Hevajra in Sakya, one cannot practice the Ngok lugs tradition from Marpa and vice versa. Same with Vajrayogini. Receiving Vajrayogini in Kagyu, does not qualify you to practice Naro Khachö in Sakya, even though the mantra is identical.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.
This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.

As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.

But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:15 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.
This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.

As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.

But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.
This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.

As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.

But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.
Thank you for this clarification.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:46 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.

As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.

But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.
Thank you for this clarification.
Norbu Rinpoche and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa's view (and other Dzogchen masters) is that if you have received Dzogchen transmission, all you need is the lung and khrid, you do not even need a formal wang. Since Dzogchen transmission is the essence of all empowerments.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by michaelb » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:41 pm

The two main Dudjom Tersar Drolo practices discovered by Dudjom Rinpoche have the same lineage, the same mandala (pretty much), and the same mantra, but require different empowerments. Always wondered why but if it's like that with one Dudjom Tersar yidam, I imagine it would be the same for others. The two tersar Vajrakilaya practices also require separate empowerments, but they are more different than the two Drolo practices.

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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:56 pm

michaelb wrote:The two main Dudjom Tersar Drolo practices discovered by Dudjom Rinpoche have the same lineage, the same mandala (pretty much), and the same mantra, but require different empowerments. Always wondered why but if it's like that with one Dudjom Tersar yidam, I imagine it would be the same for others. The two tersar Vajrakilaya practices also require separate empowerments, but they are more different than the two Drolo practices.

With respect to those two Drollo wangs, one is more related to mahāyoga and the other is more related to anuyoga.

When I received this from Ngagoa Yeshe Dorje, however, he combined the two empowerments together.

M
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by heart » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid.
I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?

/magnus
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:17 am

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid.
I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?

/magnus

Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Adamantine » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:44 am

Malcolm wrote: Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Rroman » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:45 pm

The two tersar Vajrakilaya practices also require separate empowerments,
id say yes and no on this one. talk with your lama. I dont think it is black and white

without a doubt, as Malcolm said, thoma needs the wang, lung andf tri

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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by heart » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid.
I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?

/magnus

Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
Maybe I don't understand but are you saying that if you have the Shitro empowerment you don't need a Khrodha Kali empowerment to practice Khrodha Kali, for example in the Dudjom tradition?

/magnus
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:12 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?

/magnus

Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
Maybe I don't understand but are you saying that if you have the Shitro empowerment you don't need a Khrodha Kali empowerment to practice Khrodha Kali, for example in the Dudjom tradition?

/magnus
According to my understanding, if you have a major Shitro empowerment, it covers all deities because all yidams are included in the 100 peaceful and wrathful deities. Of course it is better to have the wang, but it is not completely necessary.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by lelopa » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:45 am

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
Maybe I don't understand but are you saying that if you have the Shitro empowerment you don't need a Khrodha Kali empowerment to practice Khrodha Kali, for example in the Dudjom tradition?

/magnus
According to my understanding, if you have a major Shitro empowerment, it covers all deities because all yidams are included in the 100 peaceful and wrathful deities. Of course it is better to have the wang, but it is not completely necessary.

Are there minor Shitro empowerments?
which ones?
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:56 am

I was under the impression that there is a Shitro empowerment that covers all 100, am I mistaken?
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by KrisW » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The mantras are different, the mandalas are different, the lineage is different, and the teaching is different.
This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.

As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.

But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.
Is the tonwang of the namcho shitro sufficient, or are you mentioning a specific shitro empowerment?
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