Ati Muwer

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Mantrik
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Ati Muwer

Post by Mantrik » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:11 pm

I'm interested in compiling here what we know about Ati Muwer.

I have read the story of Ati Muwer as a powerful male guardian who was tamed and ridden by Padmasambhava.
I have also read of Dorje Drolod and his mount, Ati Muwer, in this case a female tigress in her first heat.

I wonder, what are the the stories (and sources) around this facinating being?

Here, we have only this little exchange of ideas:
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8851&p=129932&hili ... er#p129932
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

dzoki
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Re: Ati Muwer

Post by dzoki » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:21 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:11 pm
I have read the story of Ati Muwer as a powerful male guardian who was tamed and ridden by Padmasambhava.
I have also read of Dorje Drolod and his mount, Ati Muwer, in this case a female tigress in her first heat.
I heard the same from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, but I don't know from what source Rinpoche takes this information.

Padmasabhava has manifested as Dorje Drolo in 13 places all of which are called Tagtsang - the most famous being the one in Padro in Bhutan. The other one is Rongme Karmo Tagtsang in Kham, and there is one near Sera in central Tibet, etc. So it is possible that this story is connected to one of those. In Dudjom Tersar however the tigress is a manifestation of Padmasambhava's consort Tashi Kyidren, and if I remember correctly same goes for Drolo of Yonge Mingyur Dorje.

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jkarlins
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Re: Ati Muwer

Post by jkarlins » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:41 pm

Interesting. I'd heard that the pregnant tigress represented someone else, can't remember who. But this was for Trungpa's Sadhana of Mahamudra, so it could that the iconography was different for that reason.

Jake

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lelopa
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Re: Ati Muwer

Post by lelopa » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:46 am

Sometimes the Tigress is Yeshe Tsogyal, Shakya Devi, Tashi Kyidren or Ati Muwer - very, very different from the Ati Muwer of Bon.
Sometimes the Tiger is Ati Muwer - sometimes Yeshe Tsogyal (f.e.) manifested as Tiger to help Padmasambhava to conquer Ati Muwer who took the form of a scorpion.... etc, etc.
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Re: Ati Muwer

Post by Mantrik » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:18 am

jkarlins wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:41 pm
Interesting. I'd heard that the pregnant tigress represented someone else, can't remember who. But this was for Trungpa's Sadhana of Mahamudra, so it could that the iconography was different for that reason.

Jake
In the thread I linked to, Malcolm explains that the translation is more correctly that she is in her first heat, lustful and fierce.

Then again, if she was pregnant, she might get a craving for scorpions....... lol :)
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Mantrik
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Re: Ati Muwer

Post by Mantrik » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:24 am

Thanks for the various stories.:)

Are there scriptural sources for them?

I remember ChNN quoted two in the Dorje Drolod booklet, but not the source, except that one was Bonpo and ancient.

Deities atop lions etc are common in India too. I wondered if Padmasambhava's story is reflected in any Indian or Nepali tales as well.
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Mantrik
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Re: Ati Muwer

Post by Mantrik » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:27 am

lelopa wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:46 am
Sometimes the Tigress is Yeshe Tsogyal, Shakya Devi, Tashi Kyidren or Ati Muwer - very, very different from the Ati Muwer of Bon.
Could there be more than one Ati Muwer in Bon, or perhaps a wrathful form?
ChNN is very well versed in the ancient tales, Zhang Zhung etc. and the Ati Muwer he describes is not at all the same as the peaceful deity others have described.
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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jkarlins
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Re: Ati Muwer

Post by jkarlins » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:09 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:18 am
jkarlins wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:41 pm
Interesting. I'd heard that the pregnant tigress represented someone else, can't remember who. But this was for Trungpa's Sadhana of Mahamudra, so it could that the iconography was different for that reason.

Jake
In the thread I linked to, Malcolm explains that the translation is more correctly that she is in her first heat, lustful and fierce.

Then again, if she was pregnant, she might get a craving for scorpions....... lol :)
Who knows

I think Trungpa said she was Yeshe Tsogyal or Mandarava, a quicky search didn't yield much.

It might have just been "a dakini in the form of a pregnant tigress." In one book he highlighted the "pregnant" aspect, as when the atmosphere is "pregnant" with some sort of feeling or something about to happen.

All pretty interesting, I am always a little surprised when I hear about some deity or other in a new form, they are really endless.

Jake

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