The Future

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Aryjna
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Re: The Future

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:10 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 am
People have been saying whether one becomes a buddhist has something to do with the person's merit and karmic connection.

So..I am wondering.... Buddhists and great masters have been liberating animals in huge number. Before being liberated, holy prayers, mantras and powerful aspirations have been recited into the mind stream of these animals. Shouldn't we expect at least a fraction of these liberated animals to head back into the buddhist community since they should have a strong connection with these masters and community which saved their lives and positive imprints have been said into their mindstream?

if this is not the case, then what is the explanation?
A positive imprint doesn't mean that a grasshopper will be reborn as a human with great interest in the Dharma in its next life. It creates a cause, maybe it will be many lives before it can become a practitioner.

Also, as others have said, there are countless worlds. Thinking that there is a finite number of beings living only on Earth, and so expecting to have progressively more humans and less animals, more Buddhists etc., does not make much sense.

WeiHan
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Re: The Future

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:45 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:10 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 am
People have been saying whether one becomes a buddhist has something to do with the person's merit and karmic connection.

So..I am wondering.... Buddhists and great masters have been liberating animals in huge number. Before being liberated, holy prayers, mantras and powerful aspirations have been recited into the mind stream of these animals. Shouldn't we expect at least a fraction of these liberated animals to head back into the buddhist community since they should have a strong connection with these masters and community which saved their lives and positive imprints have been said into their mindstream?

if this is not the case, then what is the explanation?
A positive imprint doesn't mean that a grasshopper will be reborn as a human with great interest in the Dharma in its next life. It creates a cause, maybe it will be many lives before it can become a practitioner.

Also, as others have said, there are countless worlds. Thinking that there is a finite number of beings living only on Earth, and so expecting to have progressively more humans and less animals, more Buddhists etc., does not make much sense.
Inside me I am not quite satisfied with the answer that they are all taking rebirth in countless other worlds and that is why we don't get to meet them so soon. Why so? As many anecdotal stories accounted, karmic debtors do find us pretty quickly when we did a great unjust to them so why couldn't a great benefit such a saving lives of billions of beings end up with a small fraction of them coming back to us pretty quickly?

Josef
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Re: The Future

Post by Josef » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:55 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:45 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:10 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 am
People have been saying whether one becomes a buddhist has something to do with the person's merit and karmic connection.

So..I am wondering.... Buddhists and great masters have been liberating animals in huge number. Before being liberated, holy prayers, mantras and powerful aspirations have been recited into the mind stream of these animals. Shouldn't we expect at least a fraction of these liberated animals to head back into the buddhist community since they should have a strong connection with these masters and community which saved their lives and positive imprints have been said into their mindstream?

if this is not the case, then what is the explanation?
A positive imprint doesn't mean that a grasshopper will be reborn as a human with great interest in the Dharma in its next life. It creates a cause, maybe it will be many lives before it can become a practitioner.

Also, as others have said, there are countless worlds. Thinking that there is a finite number of beings living only on Earth, and so expecting to have progressively more humans and less animals, more Buddhists etc., does not make much sense.
Inside me I am not quite satisfied with the answer that they are all taking rebirth in countless other worlds and that is why we don't get to meet them so soon. Why so? As many anecdotal stories accounted, karmic debtors do find us pretty quickly when we did a great unjust to them so why couldn't a great benefit such a saving lives of billions of beings end up with a small fraction of them coming back to us pretty quickly?
Some do move through more quickly.
We also have to consider the previous karma that caused them to be reborn in the lower realms in the first place. Perhaps they are working up from the hell realms etc.
We can observe the dispositions of different species and at least form hypotheses about their karmic history and trajectory.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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cyril
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Re: The Future

Post by cyril » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:53 am

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 am
People have been saying whether one becomes a buddhist has something to do with the person's merit and karmic connection.

So..I am wondering.... Buddhists and great masters have been liberating animals in huge number. Before being liberated, holy prayers, mantras and powerful aspirations have been recited into the mind stream of these animals. Shouldn't we expect at least a fraction of these liberated animals to head back into the buddhist community since they should have a strong connection with these masters and community which saved their lives and positive imprints have been said into their mindstream?

if this is not the case, then what is the explanation?
Not sure if my understanding is correct but, if those animals make it somehow to the human realm, then, due to the power of those blessings, they will meet Dharma in one way or another. However, I don't think there is any guarantee that something will"click" inside on that occasion so that they will become devoted practitioners in that very life. I think that for most of the humans, the power of kleshas far exceeds the power of the Triple Jewels' blessings.

For instance nowadays, Dharma is incredibly easy to access. If you think about it, some 50-60 years ago, almost nobody in the West heard about such things as Dzogchen or Mahamudra; now, you can get transmission and instructions via webcast. There are hundreds of good books, treaties and commentaries covering all Buddhist traditions that you can read online or download for free. Still, how many people around you do you see becoming suddenly interested in Dharma even after running into these things once or twice?
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

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Quay
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Re: The Future

Post by Quay » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:20 pm

Somewhere in the Rabbit books, John Updike wrote something like "The world keeps on ending but apparently new people too dumb to know it keep showing up as if the fun's just started."
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: The Future

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:00 am

i'm 30 yo, received transmission at 16 or 17, and practiced very very seriously since then. Said that, i can see with a good grade of certainty that the main problems for the future can be found:

1) in the lama's attitudes towards western society
2) in the older students attitude towards new students

in general, lamas do like to fantasize that they still are in tibet. well maybe they don't know that i'm a westener and i'm not interested in tibetan manners... in fact i give exactly 0 f*cks on tibetan culture. If dharma comes in chinese then i learn chinese, i do care on dharma but i don't care much from where the lama comes, don't find anything special in tibetan culture. so the tibetan stuff can turn to be an over whelming obstacle for new buddhists (language, manners, traditions, etc.) when lamas do everything pretending that they are surrounded by tibetans. tibetan stuff is not the main point.

as i was younger i had to took a lot of shit in my intents for gaining access to the teachings, shit like old practitioners phantasies, old practitioners not helping new practitioners, not having to whom ask anything about experiences, old practitioners behaving like kids/adolescents, not having access to books, old practitioners arguing, discussing, etc., old practitioners not having boddhicitta, having no money to study (because yes, you need money to study tibetan buddhism or participate in sangha activities), old practitioners talking only between themselves, etc. Such thing of course that discourages young people and new practitioners.

this are my arguments haha, sorry

now there are issues, like what's more important ¿donation or boddhicitta? (is money what the lama really want?), the why there is infraestructure for each lama in each city (why don they share if they are enligthened?), spiritual ego (does tulku or rinpoche means something, why they travel in 1st class, why they dress in silk?), etc., such things makes think that this buddhism is just like profit oriented religion..

no need to mention the sexual -and other- scandals...
"Emptiness" without compassion is not real emptiness.
"Compassion" without emptiness is not real compassion.

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weitsicht
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Re: The Future

Post by weitsicht » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:44 pm

Does old wine need to be filled into new skins to meet contemporary taste just like Padmasambhava blended the old local gods into the to-be imported Buddhism?

Now that I understood about the Four Seals as the litmus test for Dharma's validity, and the impossibility to ever prove this validity properly in today's times, I wonder what you think about MindUp, a secular teaching for primary pupise as reflected here in the film "Innsaei"



Can Shamata and Vipassana without even calling them this way be sufficient?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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TharpaChodron
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Re: The Future

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:25 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:44 pm
Does old wine need to be filled into new skins to meet contemporary taste just like Padmasambhava blended the old local gods into the to-be imported Buddhism?

Now that I understood about the Four Seals as the litmus test for Dharma's validity, and the impossibility to ever prove this validity properly in today's times, I wonder what you think about MindUp, a secular teaching for primary pupise as reflected here in the film "Innsaei"



Can Shamata and Vipassana without even calling them this way be sufficient?
I'm on the liberal side of thinking it's a good thing. This week I'm starting a training to facilitate a mindfulness program for our clients where I work. Most of them have no education or background in Buddhism or mindfulness/meditation, but I feel they can benefit from learning about it in a secular way.

I get how people don't like watering down Buddhism into mindfulness, but giving up on teaching mindfulness to non-Buddhists because it's not Buddhism seems to me very short sighted.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The Future

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:59 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:25 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:44 pm
Does old wine need to be filled into new skins to meet contemporary taste just like Padmasambhava blended the old local gods into the to-be imported Buddhism?

Now that I understood about the Four Seals as the litmus test for Dharma's validity, and the impossibility to ever prove this validity properly in today's times, I wonder what you think about MindUp, a secular teaching for primary pupise as reflected here in the film "Innsaei"



Can Shamata and Vipassana without even calling them this way be sufficient?
I'm on the liberal side of thinking it's a good thing. This week I'm starting a training to facilitate a mindfulness program for our clients where I work. Most of them have no education or background in Buddhism or mindfulness/meditation, but I feel they can benefit from learning about it in a secular way.

I get how people don't like watering down Buddhism into mindfulness, but giving up on teaching mindfulness to non-Buddhists because it's not Buddhism seems to me very short sighted.

I agree, therapeutically "mindfulness", MBSR, MBRP etc. (though man, I am sick of seeing the word everywhere now) are really promising, it just needs to be stressed that they are not Buddhism.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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weitsicht
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Re: The Future

Post by weitsicht » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:42 am

The end of this section moved me quite. it's unfortunately not on this clip.

The boy tells how his father was so impatient and enervated about his two sons and how the father admitted to him that the changes of his son and hence this MindUp made him as-well reflect more before letting emotions arise. A domino-effect. So beautiful!

I am confident that the Dharma, the essence, can be preserved. But maybe it'll be called differently.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

Yeti
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Re: The Future

Post by Yeti » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:22 am

IMHO Dharma practice is hard work, and facing a lot of things that aren't really that attractive. But that's just me. When it comes to really working on yourself... it doesn't surprise me few people are interested... I have enough aversion to practices as it is. :soapbox:

There's more and more reason to follow the path of the hidden yogis and yoginis.
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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TharpaChodron
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Re: The Future

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:53 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:59 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:25 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:44 pm
Does old wine need to be filled into new skins to meet contemporary taste just like Padmasambhava blended the old local gods into the to-be imported Buddhism?

Now that I understood about the Four Seals as the litmus test for Dharma's validity, and the impossibility to ever prove this validity properly in today's times, I wonder what you think about MindUp, a secular teaching for primary pupise as reflected here in the film "Innsaei"



Can Shamata and Vipassana without even calling them this way be sufficient?
I'm on the liberal side of thinking it's a good thing. This week I'm starting a training to facilitate a mindfulness program for our clients where I work. Most of them have no education or background in Buddhism or mindfulness/meditation, but I feel they can benefit from learning about it in a secular way.

I get how people don't like watering down Buddhism into mindfulness, but giving up on teaching mindfulness to non-Buddhists because it's not Buddhism seems to me very short sighted.

I agree, therapeutically "mindfulness", MBSR, MBRP etc. (though man, I am sick of seeing the word everywhere now) are really promising, it just needs to be stressed that they are not Buddhism.
What does MBRP stand for? I tried to figure it out and have no clue atm. Went to the first class today. Painfully basic, but I was impressed they got our group of regular folk to actually engage unknowingly in some Shamatha practice. As you know, we have a culture that loves to talk about being "woke" as far as cultural issues, it would be groovy if wokefullness started being about awareness of samsara as a whole.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: The Future

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:10 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:53 am
What does MBRP stand for?

Probably "Mindfulness-Based Relapse Prevention".
... nothing can be found by finding. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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TharpaChodron
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Re: The Future

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:28 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:10 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:53 am
What does MBRP stand for?

Probably "Mindfulness-Based Relapse Prevention".
Alas, I am not up to date on my relapse prevention lingo. Still in the "pre-contemplation" stage of recovery. ;)

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