The Future

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justsit
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Re: The Future

Post by justsit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:28 am

Interesting stories and interviews re: Karmapa and other lamas and the Hopi Native American tribe https://www.beezone.com/kengreen/prophecy.html.

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Josef
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Re: The Future

Post by Josef » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:29 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:11 am
cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons :stirthepot:
You're probably right. But the Native Americans are also known as having red faces and skin, at least by European perspective. Hence, we have football teams called the Redskins.
This interpretation of the prophesy seems to have gained popularity when the 16th Karmapa came to North America.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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TharpaChodron
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Re: The Future

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:32 am

cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:41 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:11 am
cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 am


Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons :stirthepot:
You're probably right. But the Native Americans are also known as having red faces and skin, at least by European perspective. Hence, we have football teams called the Redskins.
Yes, I'm aware of that but I somehow I find it strange for a terma text to use some slang terms based on an European perspective. I heard that the redskin term derives from the now-extinct Beothuk people from Newfoundland which the Europeans encountered in their early stages of colonising North America and which used to paint their skin with red ochre. Later, the term was apparently extrapolated to all the other Native tribes despite the fact that most of them did not share that red ochre skin-painting custom with the Beothuk. So, I don't know, but somehow I find it hard to believe that Padmasambhava could have chosen this particular identifier for the Native American populations.
Gotcha, I'm sure you're probably right. It's similar to when my first teacher, Lama Gyatso, talked about a Tibetan legend of a mystical encounter/prophecy of a white man and clarified that it probably wasn't alluding to caucasions.

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Manju
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Re: The Future

Post by Manju » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:09 pm

Hi everyone,

reg. future of Dharma:

Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo and Lama Shenpen Hookham hold a discussion on this topic on



Tenor: Precarious times for Buddhism, mainly because of karma and rebirth teachings are being ignored by many Western teachers.

Interesting views also on the difficulties the Western monastic Sangha faces and a helpful link
http://www.nonhimalayannunsalliance.com/home

sarva mangalam

Manju

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Malcolm
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Re: The Future

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:18 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
It is a prophecy that has no source that anyone can actually find. Thus, it is in the category of fake buddha quotes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: The Future

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:20 pm

cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:41 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:11 am
cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 am


Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons :stirthepot:
You're probably right. But the Native Americans are also known as having red faces and skin, at least by European perspective. Hence, we have football teams called the Redskins.
Yes, I'm aware of that but I somehow I find it strange for a terma text to use some slang terms based on an European perspective. I heard that the redskin term derives from the now-extinct Beothuk people from Newfoundland which the Europeans encountered in their early stages of colonising North America and which used to paint their skin with red ochre. Later, the term was apparently extrapolated to all the other Native tribes despite the fact that most of them did not share that red ochre skin-painting custom with the Beothuk. So, I don't know, but somehow I find it hard to believe that Padmasambhava could have chosen this particular identifier for the Native American populations.
Especially since the references to red-face people come from a prediction about Tibetans found in a sūtra of Khotanese authorship in the Tibetan canon. Tibetan warriors used to paint their faces red. And they used to invade Khotan, a lot.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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TharpaChodron
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Re: The Future

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:18 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
It is a prophecy that has no source that anyone can actually find. Thus, it is in the category of fake buddha quotes.
I thought that might be the case. These fake Buddha quotes can be very pernicious. When I hear a quote that sounds like the Buddha as Oprah, I do wonder, too.

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Lingpupa
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Re: The Future

Post by Lingpupa » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:27 am

AFAIK the earliest known occurrences of the "prophecy" are in Trungpa's early American publicity material. People have searched for an earlier one, but I don't think it's been found. Unless anybody knows?
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

Sennin
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Re: The Future

Post by Sennin » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:06 am

So here's a little embarrassing story. :emb:
I stay in the southern U.S. and Buddhism isn't really a thing here except for small pockets here and there.

Anyways I went to a dharma center to try and connect with dharma practitioners and just see what's going on.
So as I arrive to the center I walk up and every person in the center was older and white. No biggie, it's just I felt super akward and uncomfortable.

So yeah it was embarrassing I felt that way but I understand why. Obviously in N.America there is a lot of issues concerning race and shit but another reason is I just turned 29 years old and have had a connection with the dharma in a serious way since 2012.

So for years I have felt super saddened not to see many youth connect with dharma in a sincere way. I've seen my fair share of young wannabe dharma teachers. But i mean it's super rare to meet a youth who will go all for it.

I guess that's why I started visiting centers just to see and confirm how many young people are interested. There's alot of solutions I think but maybe ive already gone off topic enough.

There's alot I wanted to add to this topic in a more eloquent way perhaps. But just reflecting on the future and sharing my current thoughts to the discussion.

Edit: corrected misspelled word.
Shhh, look...a crystal!

fckw
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Re: The Future

Post by fckw » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:00 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:13 am
Most young people would probably rather get drunk and laid, can't say I was much different.
I generally worry not about those who like getting drunk and laid at a young age, but about those who practice Vajrayana instead. They usually have a longer way ahead of them getting over their unresolved spiritual narcissism yet. At some point, roughly 32 years, it then switches and I worry more about those who have not yet established any meaningful spiritual practice (Sufi, Buddhist, Christian, Daoist or whatever comes to their creative minds) which is indeed the vast majority of people. It's just a fact that many people in their lives never come to a stage where they start caring for their own personal growth beyond purely random behavior. Yet, it's changing slowly for the better. True, a lot of it is still at a very immature stage, but look how many people are already feeling there's more to life than just getting a job, getting married and then repeating for the rest of their lives.

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Re: The Future

Post by Jeff H » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:52 pm

fckw wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:00 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:13 am
Most young people would probably rather get drunk and laid, can't say I was much different.
I generally worry not about those who like getting drunk and laid at a young age, but about those who practice Vajrayana instead. They usually have a longer way ahead of them getting over their unresolved spiritual narcissism yet. At some point, roughly 32 years, it then switches and I worry more about those who have not yet established any meaningful spiritual practice (Sufi, Buddhist, Christian, Daoist or whatever comes to their creative minds) which is indeed the vast majority of people. It's just a fact that many people in their lives never come to a stage where they start caring for their own personal growth beyond purely random behavior. Yet, it's changing slowly for the better. True, a lot of it is still at a very immature stage, but look how many people are already feeling there's more to life than just getting a job, getting married and then repeating for the rest of their lives.
I find these comments insightful. I came up with a similar life-rule for myself regarding relationships. I’m 70 now, but in my pre-30’s I learned a lot about marriage and relationships the hard way. My rule became that I could only determine if a relationship was genuine if, after 3 years, I felt just as strongly about the other as I did in the beginning. The corollary was, don’t even think about marriage until after 30. Clearly it may not be a general rule for everyone, but it has worked for me in relationships, my present marriage (29 years on Sunday), and other things, like jobs and religion.

KrisW sounds to me like he’s doing it right. I’m sorry you have a problem finding a center, but on the other hand, Dharma is not a social event. It is primarily a solitary pursuit and there are many avenues you can take these days to learn, practice, and obtain sangha support without a nearby center. Western Buddhism is not like the Buddhist culture of the east in which very young children were given over to the monasteries; nor should it be, in my opinion.

IF buddhadharma is in decline now, which it may or may not be, then it falls under the Shantideva rule that HHDL often cites: If you can’t do anything about the problem, why worry? And if you can do something about it, don’t worry, just do it.

What we can’t do anything about is whether buddhadharma degenerates generally. What we can do, though, is to double-down on our own personal practice.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

Jeff H
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Re: The Future

Post by Jeff H » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:07 pm

To paraphrase young Alvie Singer in Annie Hall, “Buddhadharma is expanding and succumbing to popularization. Someday it will break apart and disappear.” And his mother, “What is that your business? He’s stopped practicing Dharma! Your cushion is not expanding!”


We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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TharpaChodron
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Re: The Future

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:26 am

KrisW wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:06 am
So here's a little embarrassing story. :emb:
I stay in the southern U.S. and Buddhism isn't really a thing here except for small pockets here and there.

Anyways I went to a dharma center to try and connect with dharma practitioners and just see what's going on.
So as I arrive to the center I walk up and every person in the center was older and white. No biggie, it's just I felt super akward and uncomfortable.

So yeah it was embarrassing I felt that way but I understand why. Obviously in N.America there is a lot of issues concerning race and shit but another reason is I just turned 29 years old and have had a connection with the dharma in a serious way since 2012.

So for years I have felt super saddened not to see many youth connect with dharma in a sincere way. I've seen my fair share of young wannabe dharma teachers. But i mean it's super rare to meet a youth who will go all for it.

I guess that's why I started visiting centers just to see and confirm how many young people are interested. There's alot of solutions I think but maybe ive already gone off topic enough.

There's alot I wanted to add to this topic in a more eloquent way perhaps. But just reflecting on the future and sharing my current thoughts to the discussion.

Edit: corrected misspelled word.
Well, I don't think it's embarrassing, given you did nothing wrong. :) It feels awkward not fitting in. I also don't think you've said enough and I'd love to hear what more you have to say on the subject. i think one of the downfalls of modern American culture is we're so self conscious and hung up on "fitting in." Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche supposedly left the states for Brazil thinking that Brazil was a more open society to Buddhism, and if you look at all the younger people engaged in their centers, it seems that may be true.

PeterC
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Re: The Future

Post by PeterC » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:39 am

I heard a story once about a conference convened a few decades ago by (Japanese) Rinzai teachers to discuss modernization of Dharma teaching, how to reach the younger generation better, etc etc. - much the same topics except in a Japanese context. One of the teachers remained largely silent until the obligatory summing-up at the end. At that point he said that he'd heard and considered all these points about modernization, and his conclusion was that it wouldn't harm the Dharma, but equally that it wouldn't help the Dharma either, and that the best thing they could do is be the best practitioners they could be themselves, and those that had genuine need for and interest in the Dharma would seek them out.

Simon E.
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Re: The Future

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:53 am

This! :good:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

WeiHan
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Re: The Future

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 am

People have been saying whether one becomes a buddhist has something to do with the person's merit and karmic connection.

So..I am wondering.... Buddhists and great masters have been liberating animals in huge number. Before being liberated, holy prayers, mantras and powerful aspirations have been recited into the mind stream of these animals. Shouldn't we expect at least a fraction of these liberated animals to head back into the buddhist community since they should have a strong connection with these masters and community which saved their lives and positive imprints have been said into their mindstream?

if this is not the case, then what is the explanation?

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Re: The Future

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:24 am

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 am
People have been saying whether one becomes a buddhist has something to do with the person's merit and karmic connection.

So..I am wondering.... Buddhists and great masters have been liberating animals in huge number. Before being liberated, holy prayers, mantras and powerful aspirations have been recited into the mind stream of these animals. Shouldn't we expect at least a fraction of these liberated animals to head back into the buddhist community since they should have a strong connection with these masters and community which saved their lives and positive imprints have been said into their mindstream?

if this is not the case, then what is the explanation?
Karma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

WeiHan
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Re: The Future

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:47 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:24 am
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 am
People have been saying whether one becomes a buddhist has something to do with the person's merit and karmic connection.

So..I am wondering.... Buddhists and great masters have been liberating animals in huge number. Before being liberated, holy prayers, mantras and powerful aspirations have been recited into the mind stream of these animals. Shouldn't we expect at least a fraction of these liberated animals to head back into the buddhist community since they should have a strong connection with these masters and community which saved their lives and positive imprints have been said into their mindstream?

if this is not the case, then what is the explanation?
Karma.
Karma, we know. We want to know the specific karma needed so that there will have more buddhists in the future.

People may talk about having more friendly centres. More programmes that reach out to communities etc etc but these are only facilitating conditions at most...the root cause is that the being has a strong connection with Dharma and i thought that connection is fostered with animals that have been liberated with strong prayers said?

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Grigoris
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Re: The Future

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:12 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:47 am
Karma, we know. We want to know the specific karma needed so that there will have more buddhists in the future.
You are going to have to ask a Buddha that question.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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TharpaChodron
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Re: The Future

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:03 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:47 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:24 am
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 am
People have been saying whether one becomes a buddhist has something to do with the person's merit and karmic connection.

So..I am wondering.... Buddhists and great masters have been liberating animals in huge number. Before being liberated, holy prayers, mantras and powerful aspirations have been recited into the mind stream of these animals. Shouldn't we expect at least a fraction of these liberated animals to head back into the buddhist community since they should have a strong connection with these masters and community which saved their lives and positive imprints have been said into their mindstream?

if this is not the case, then what is the explanation?
Karma.
Karma, we know. We want to know the specific karma needed so that there will have more buddhists in the future.

People may talk about having more friendly centres. More programmes that reach out to communities etc etc but these are only facilitating conditions at most...the root cause is that the being has a strong connection with Dharma and i thought that connection is fostered with animals that have been liberated with strong prayers said?
This is just my thought experiment, which could be totally wrong, but here goes:

They may be Buddhists, but not returned back here on Earth as humans. I wondered about a similar thing myself at one point. Why aren't there more and more Buddhists on Earth (actually, I think there might be). And then I thought about all the people who have committed suicide or had lives in which the Dharma or any type of sense of wisdom was extremely far from their own personal experience. Then there's overpopulation, etc. Maybe if everyone who could be a Bodhisattva returned to this earth, all the people with karma that brings them back to Samsara would have no place to go.

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