The Future

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Grigoris
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Re: The Future

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:25 pm

cyril wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:47 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:27 pm
It took Christianity about 1500 years to peak, and you think Vajrayana peaked in 20 years? No. Vajrayana is still in it's infancy in the West.
A long-lived phenomena usually peaks at a slower pace than a short-lived one. Christianity, so far, enjoyed a long life because, from the Constantine the Great till the so-called Age of Reason, it benefited from the patronage of royalty, state and other powerful supporters. Even today, if you look at the symbiosis between the state and the Orthodox church in countries like Greece, Romania or Russia, it becomes very clear that Christianity still has many years ahead of it in those places. Now, with the exception of Bhutan, I don't see Vajrayana enjoying this kind of support anywhere in the world and I believe this fact alone is enough reason not to think that it will follow in the West a trajectory similar to Christianity.
Ummmmm... I think you will find it did not have state patronage at the beginning. Quite the opposite actually: Christian Persecution

Constantine came onto the scene 300 years after Christ's death and did not officially convert to Christianity (ie was not baptised) until just before his death. Even after his death Byzantine emperors continued to offer state funding to ALL the existing religions, this practice did not end until Emperor Justinian I in 527AD. That is when Christianity became the official religion of the Byzantine state and when the persecution of non-Christian religions began in earnest. So, no, I don't think your point is all that valid.
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amanitamusc
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Re: The Future

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:31 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:57 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:20 pm
You think 20 or30 years is enough to straighten out countless aeons of wandering?
In Dzogchen teachings, five minutes is about the right amount of time, and that might be too long.
This sounds very interesting indeed.

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Re: The Future

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:50 pm

I think Buddhism over the 20th century tied itself too strongly to boomer culture.

Now, I really dislike all these characterizations of millennial as "safe space" snowflakes or whatever; I think we are a generation of separate subcultures, many of which really have no communication amongst themselves (exacerbated by "social" media). It is misleading and inaccurate to speak of this generation as a homogeneous group, more so than the preceding generations. Instead of a few newspapers, TV channels and radio stations everyone is exposed to, we have Youtube, blogs, various news sites that we read depending on our preferences.

One thing that might be fairly widespread though, is a dislike of boomer culture.

I find it interesting to read about developments in other religions, hope it doesn't stray too far out, but I noted that for example, amongst Catholics, it has been the millennials who are abandoning Vatican 2.0 and other boomer stuff (hippie songs in church etc) and instead embracing Traditional Latin Mass.

Buddhism in Asia I think is also witnessing ageing congregations. The Buddhist boomer culture here is different from the Western Buddhist boomer culture in some ways, but IMO not that much from boomer culture at large. The older generation of Asian Buddhists are very interested in wealth and longevity pujas, merit-making, and so on in order to live long and prosper. I can't speak for everyone of course, but I think the younger generation has less and less interest in these things.

I'm not sure what the Buddhist response would be. I think the Dzogchen Community in Europe and maybe China has a lot of younger people. Can't really say the same for a lot of the other Buddhist communities I've seen, unless you count families bringing in their children in some Dharma centres.

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justsit
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Re: The Future

Post by justsit » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:54 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:50 pm
I really dislike all these characterizations of millennial as "safe space" snowflakes or whatever...
And yet
MiphamFan wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:50 pm
One thing that might be fairly widespread though, is a dislike of boomer culture.
"Boomer culture" (whatever that is) is no more homogeneous than "Millennial culture." Just sayin.'

One interesting development I've observed among the US 20-30 age group is a high incidence of self-described "social anxiety." Face to face interactions seem to be dwindling among this group, and even more so among teens. Fairly obviously, it is related to growth of social media, and I don't think it bodes well for healthy "Real Life" sanghas.

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Re: The Future

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:55 pm

But given the fact that many of us turned to Dharma because of our disillusionment with materialism it might be that for younger people social media might eventually be the 'schoolteacher' that leads them to Dharma.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: The Future

Post by philji » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:37 pm

Dharma is doing very well in many parts of the Far East. Perhaps us westerners are too impatient. We want to talk about it, read about it, teach it.. but practice it.. this is where perhaps we lack the diligence.
Dharma centres seem to be a western invention. Often more of a social gathering than a practice place.

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Re: The Future

Post by justsit » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:40 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:55 pm
But given the fact that many of us turned to Dharma because of our disillusionment with materialism it might be that for younger people social media might eventually be the 'schoolteacher' that leads them to Dharma.
I hope for their sake you're right.

That may still leave the issue of direct oral transmission. Maybe gurus will decide they can ear-whisper on skype or ?

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Malcolm
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Re: The Future

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:45 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:55 pm
But given the fact that many of us turned to Dharma because of our disillusionment with materialism it might be that for younger people social media might eventually be the 'schoolteacher' that leads them to Dharma.

I am not disillusioned with materialism, I am just not very good at it...
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-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: The Future

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:48 pm

Which is your good karma..
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: The Future

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:04 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:09 am
Apologies if this has been discussed before, but I am concerned that Vajrayana Buddhism is going the way of Christianity in the West. It seems that things reached their peak in the 70's-80's here and now the loyal practitioners are becoming older, there are fewer and fewer young people getting interested and taking part in the spiritual path.

I'll "ride or die" with my Nyingma lineage practice, but wondering if anyone else has had this concern or if you think it's nothing to worry about.

Anam Thubten seems to be fairly concerned about this issue. He started something called, I think, the Dharma Leadership Program to try to encourage and educate younger people about Buddhism, but there doesn't seem to be much about it online. I know some people who are participating in it and I believe it is by invitation only. I can understand why he is concerned. If you attend his events, at least the ones here in the SF Bay Area, the people there do indeed seem to be mostly "senior" practitioners.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: The Future

Post by MiphamFan » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:18 am

philji wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:37 pm
Dharma is doing very well in many parts of the Far East. Perhaps us westerners are too impatient. We want to talk about it, read about it, teach it.. but practice it.. this is where perhaps we lack the diligence.
Dharma centres seem to be a western invention. Often more of a social gathering than a practice place.
As far as I can see in Singapore, it depends.

Dharma centres also exist here, not quite the same as the West, but similar in many ways.

I think small centres focusing on pujas and so on, maybe with a resident lama, who does pujas but doesn't really teach, are more common here. The crowd at these types of centre seems to be older. Centres which do offer more teaching can attract more younger people but it still skews older.

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Re: The Future

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am

I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?

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Re: The Future

Post by Josef » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:19 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
There are other predictions of the dharma being transmitted west.
Khenpo Ngakchung for example also had powerful visions of dharma transmission coming here that were confirmed by his teacher, Nyoshul Lungtok.
It is coming to pass.
Kye ma!
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Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: The Future

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:26 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
Iirc those lines are from a terma, but I am not positive.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: The Future

Post by cyril » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons :stirthepot:
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

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Re: The Future

Post by Josef » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:33 am

cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons :stirthepot:
Many Tibetans have blue eyes.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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cyril
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Re: The Future

Post by cyril » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:35 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:33 am
cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons :stirthepot:
Many Tibetans have blue eyes.
You're joking, right?
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

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Josef
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Re: The Future

Post by Josef » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:46 am

cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:35 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:33 am
cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 am


Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons :stirthepot:
Many Tibetans have blue eyes.
You're joking, right?
No, not at all.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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TharpaChodron
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Re: The Future

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:11 am

cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons :stirthepot:
You're probably right. But the Native Americans are also known as having red faces and skin, at least by European perspective. Hence, we have football teams called the Redskins.

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cyril
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Re: The Future

Post by cyril » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:41 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:11 am
cyril wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 am
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting. I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?
Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons :stirthepot:
You're probably right. But the Native Americans are also known as having red faces and skin, at least by European perspective. Hence, we have football teams called the Redskins.
Yes, I'm aware of that but I somehow I find it strange for a terma text to use some slang terms based on an European perspective. I heard that the redskin term derives from the now-extinct Beothuk people from Newfoundland which the Europeans encountered in their early stages of colonising North America and which used to paint their skin with red ochre. Later, the term was apparently extrapolated to all the other Native tribes despite the fact that most of them did not share that red ochre skin-painting custom with the Beothuk. So, I don't know, but somehow I find it hard to believe that Padmasambhava could have chosen this particular identifier for the Native American populations.
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

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