Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

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Josef
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Josef » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:12 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:06 am
Josef wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:55 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:27 pm
Though it seems it is considered something that can be achieved through practice, it really doesn't seem to fit in with other worldly siddhis. Contrary to wealth, removing obstacles, etc., finding a girlfriend is something inherently counterproductive to practice.
This is definitely not the case. Some people are more inclined to using their relationships as a spiritual support (this goes far beyond goofy notions of sexual spirituality).
Many practitioners have flourished through their intimate relationships and many of our lineage masters have done the same.
Do you know for a fact that in the majority of the cases of lineage masters being married the choice is not largely cultural? And that they actually flourished because of the relationship, while their realization would be less without it?

Of course it is not necessarily always negative. But there really is no way to compare an advanced practitioner having a partner to someone of little realization having a partner who is also of little realization. As I see it, it is at the very best a neutral thing as far as practice goes, and this is probably only true for a very small minority of the cases, with most of them falling more or less into the 'counterproductive' range.

I am not saying one shouldn't have a relationship. But that it is not something that really helps, such as having obstacles to practice removed, longer life so that you have more time for practice, and other kinds of mundane siddhis that support practice.
A reading of any namthar collection will answer your first question. Hint: there are countless episodes of masters either further propagating the teachings by being in relationships or having a lesser impact do to remaining renunciates.
You do realize that relationships are contributors to those mundane siddhis you mention, right?
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Aryjna
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:13 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:12 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:06 am
Josef wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:55 pm


This is definitely not the case. Some people are more inclined to using their relationships as a spiritual support (this goes far beyond goofy notions of sexual spirituality).
Many practitioners have flourished through their intimate relationships and many of our lineage masters have done the same.
Do you know for a fact that in the majority of the cases of lineage masters being married the choice is not largely cultural? And that they actually flourished because of the relationship, while their realization would be less without it?

Of course it is not necessarily always negative. But there really is no way to compare an advanced practitioner having a partner to someone of little realization having a partner who is also of little realization. As I see it, it is at the very best a neutral thing as far as practice goes, and this is probably only true for a very small minority of the cases, with most of them falling more or less into the 'counterproductive' range.

I am not saying one shouldn't have a relationship. But that it is not something that really helps, such as having obstacles to practice removed, longer life so that you have more time for practice, and other kinds of mundane siddhis that support practice.
A reading of any namthar collection will answer your first question. Hint: there are countless episodes of masters either further propagating the teachings by being in relationships or having a lesser impact do to remaining renunciates.
You do realize that relationships are contributors to those mundane siddhis you mention, right?
I don't realize that actually :D Why are they contributors?

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Josef
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Josef » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:18 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:13 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:12 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:06 am


Do you know for a fact that in the majority of the cases of lineage masters being married the choice is not largely cultural? And that they actually flourished because of the relationship, while their realization would be less without it?

Of course it is not necessarily always negative. But there really is no way to compare an advanced practitioner having a partner to someone of little realization having a partner who is also of little realization. As I see it, it is at the very best a neutral thing as far as practice goes, and this is probably only true for a very small minority of the cases, with most of them falling more or less into the 'counterproductive' range.

I am not saying one shouldn't have a relationship. But that it is not something that really helps, such as having obstacles to practice removed, longer life so that you have more time for practice, and other kinds of mundane siddhis that support practice.
A reading of any namthar collection will answer your first question. Hint: there are countless episodes of masters either further propagating the teachings by being in relationships or having a lesser impact do to remaining renunciates.
You do realize that relationships are contributors to those mundane siddhis you mention, right?
I don't realize that actually :D Why are they contributors?
Read those namthars :)
Having a "consort" is often said to be a contributor to long life and creating advantageous for practice, transmission, and terma (in certain individuals of course).
Not to mention the numerous western scientific studies that show healthy relationships contribute to longer lives.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Aryjna
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:24 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:18 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:13 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:12 am


A reading of any namthar collection will answer your first question. Hint: there are countless episodes of masters either further propagating the teachings by being in relationships or having a lesser impact do to remaining renunciates.
You do realize that relationships are contributors to those mundane siddhis you mention, right?
I don't realize that actually :D Why are they contributors?
Read those namthars :)
Having a "consort" is often said to be a contributor to long life and creating advantageous for practice, transmission, and terma (in certain individuals of course).
Not to mention the numerous western scientific studies that show healthy relationships contribute to longer lives.
Any specific suggestions?

My main point is in relation to the majority of practitioners, that are far less advanced in their practice. Realistically speaking, in most cases it takes up a lot of time that could be spent practicing/studying, and it also creates strong negative emotions.

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Josef
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Josef » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:24 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:18 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:13 am


I don't realize that actually :D Why are they contributors?
Read those namthars :)
Having a "consort" is often said to be a contributor to long life and creating advantageous for practice, transmission, and terma (in certain individuals of course).
Not to mention the numerous western scientific studies that show healthy relationships contribute to longer lives.
Any specific suggestions?

My main point is in relation to the majority of practitioners, that are far less advanced in their practice. Realistically speaking, in most cases it takes up a lot of time that could be spent practicing/studying, and it also creates strong negative emotions.
I love Nyoshul Khenpos collection, A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems, but there are other anecdotes in Enlightened Vagabond, and numerous other life stories.

I agree that if handled from the perspective of the 8 worldly concerns relationships are not helpful. But, if engaged with bodhicitta a relationship can be an excellent support for practice. Both from the perspective of its challenges as well as rewards.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Aryjna
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:37 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:24 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:18 am


Read those namthars :)
Having a "consort" is often said to be a contributor to long life and creating advantageous for practice, transmission, and terma (in certain individuals of course).
Not to mention the numerous western scientific studies that show healthy relationships contribute to longer lives.
Any specific suggestions?

My main point is in relation to the majority of practitioners, that are far less advanced in their practice. Realistically speaking, in most cases it takes up a lot of time that could be spent practicing/studying, and it also creates strong negative emotions.
I love Nyoshul Khenpos collection, A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems, but there are other anecdotes in Enlightened Vagabond, and numerous other life stories.

I agree that if handled from the perspective of the 8 worldly concerns relationships are not helpful. But, if engaged with bodhicitta a relationship can be an excellent support for practice. Both from the perspective of its challenges as well as rewards.
It seems interesting, but it is gigantic and there are too many things that I need to read. I may start reading it slowly along with other things.

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Josef
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Josef » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:39 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:37 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:24 am


Any specific suggestions?

My main point is in relation to the majority of practitioners, that are far less advanced in their practice. Realistically speaking, in most cases it takes up a lot of time that could be spent practicing/studying, and it also creates strong negative emotions.
I love Nyoshul Khenpos collection, A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems, but there are other anecdotes in Enlightened Vagabond, and numerous other life stories.

I agree that if handled from the perspective of the 8 worldly concerns relationships are not helpful. But, if engaged with bodhicitta a relationship can be an excellent support for practice. Both from the perspective of its challenges as well as rewards.
It seems interesting, but it is gigantic and there are too many things that I need to read. I may start reading it slowly along with other things.
It is gigantic.
Sometimes I forget that not everyone is as voraciously nerdy as I.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Aryjna
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:41 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:39 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:37 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 am

I love Nyoshul Khenpos collection, A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems, but there are other anecdotes in Enlightened Vagabond, and numerous other life stories.

I agree that if handled from the perspective of the 8 worldly concerns relationships are not helpful. But, if engaged with bodhicitta a relationship can be an excellent support for practice. Both from the perspective of its challenges as well as rewards.
It seems interesting, but it is gigantic and there are too many things that I need to read. I may start reading it slowly along with other things.
It is gigantic.
Sometimes I forget that not everyone is as voraciously nerdy as I.
I will probably read it in time, but things directly related to practice are more of a priority at the moment and I have a long list of things to read as soon as possible.

fckw
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by fckw » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:06 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:24 am
My main point is in relation to the majority of practitioners, that are far less advanced in their practice. Realistically speaking, in most cases it takes up a lot of time that could be spent practicing/studying, and it also creates strong negative emotions.
And by the application of which siddhis exactly are you able to make judgement calls as to the advancement in realization of other forum participants?

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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by tingdzin » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:14 am

If you can find a girlfriend who isn't jealous of the time you spend in practice, even if it's a lot (or who practices as much or more than you) who doesn't demand or expect material things from you

If she is not emotionally very needy (and you are not either)

if she is not under the sway of people who are lost in the world (e.g. family),

if both of you have genuine bodhicitta,

you might have a chance at being a good dharma couple.

Forget about all this talk about "consorts" -- this is for people who are already very well and deeply involved in advanced practice.

And, to second Pema Chophel, reread "The Monkey's Paw" or "The Chaser" (both short, and probably available online), and be careful what you wish for.

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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:15 am

fckw wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:57 pm
And in contrast to what was said before: No, there is no separation in Tantra with regards to the worldly and the spiritual.
Of course there is a seperation. The seperation is based on motivation.

Taking a crap can be made into a Buddhist practice if one recites purifying/offering mantra to the Hungry Ghosts while doing so, otherwise it is just taking a crap.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:10 am

fckw wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:06 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:24 am
My main point is in relation to the majority of practitioners, that are far less advanced in their practice. Realistically speaking, in most cases it takes up a lot of time that could be spent practicing/studying, and it also creates strong negative emotions.
And by the application of which siddhis exactly are you able to make judgement calls as to the advancement in realization of other forum participants?
I don't think we understand each other. It's ok.

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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:39 am

There isn't time spent practising and then the rest of life. Life IS practice. All of it. On and off the cushion. Even reading needn't be an obstacle if done right.
Of course it will never be a substitute for relationship as a skillful means, but it's OK.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:09 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:39 am
There isn't time spent practising and then the rest of life. Life IS practice. All of it. On and off the cushion. Even reading needn't be an obstacle if done right.
Yes, but to be able to do that effectively you need to have a clear idea of what you're doing, which requires a significant amount of formal practice too in most cases. And there still are more or less favourable circumstances. I agree with tingdzin's post above.

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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:49 pm

We don't get a clear idea of what we are doing by separating practice and the rest of life.
We practice what we are given by our teacher.
Over time this carries it's own internal logic and becomes self reinforcing.
We don't watch ourselves watching ourselves watching ourselves in an act of infinite regression, interspersed with a bit of reading to check whether we are watching ourselves watching ourselves in the correct prescribed way.
We do what needs doing to the best of our ability. Sometimes this is clear to us. At other times it needs shraddha. Shraddha includes trusting the process. Trusting our teacher.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:54 pm

It would be pretty difficult for a realisation of our true nature (and that of phenomena) to not leak into our daily life.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:55 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:49 pm
We don't get a clear idea of what we are doing by separating practice and the rest of life.
We practice what we are given by our teacher.
Over time this carries it's own internal logic and becomes self reinforcing.
We don't watch ourselves watching ourselves watching ourselves in an act of infinite regression, interspersed with a bit of reading to check whether we are watching ourselves watching ourselves in the correct prescribed way.
We do what needs doing to the best of our ability. Sometimes this is clear to us. At other times it needs shraddha. Shraddha includes trusting the process. Trusting our teacher.
So, why seek a girlfriend? This does not contradict something I said as far as I can tell.

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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:51 pm

Seeking a girlfriend or boyfriend is for some people part of the 'rest of life' which is not separate from Dharma.
This is a forum for the Mahayana and Vajrayana. Not for the hinayana.

Much of the Vajrayana (and arguably all of Dzogchen) are not paths of renunciation but of integration.

Boyfriends, girlfriends, music, wine, and good pizzas are all grist to the mill of Dharma.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Aryjna
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:08 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:51 pm
Seeking a girlfriend or boyfriend is for some people part of the 'rest of life' which is not separate from Dharma.
This is a forum for the Mahayana and Vajrayana. Not for the hinayana.

Much of the Vajrayana (and arguably all of Dzogchen) are not paths of renunciation but of integration.

Boyfriends, girlfriends, music, wine, and good pizzas are all grist to the mill of Dharma.
There is a difference between integrating all circumstances to your practice and actively seeking things that really have nothing to do with it, just because they can be said to be a part of life. Many things can be a part of life, we are talking about what is directly beneficial.

Simon E.
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Re: Worldly wish fulfilling mantras?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:13 pm

There is literally nothing that is intrinsically 'nothing to do with it'.

The idea that there are areas of life which have nothing to do with Dharma is the hinayana view. The hinayana view is not exclusive to any particular school.

Motivation and awareness is all.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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