What it means to be a ngakpa

Simon E.
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:08 pm

No he doesnt.
The Doc Togden name is a joke which came about because he claimed (as a joke) to be the reincarnation of Doc Holliday of OK Corral fame.
If we are going to become indignant about Dharma practitioners who are not to our taste lets at least not make stuff up.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

dzoki
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by dzoki » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:11 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:08 pm
No he doesnt.
The Doc Togden name is a joke which came about because he claimed (as a joke) to be the reincarnation of Doc Holliday of OK Corral fame.
If we are going to become indignant about Dharma practitioners who are not to our taste lets at least not make stuff up.
Well if it is a joke, then I am not sure, why they use it in a newspaper:

Image

as well as on their website:

http://aro-books-worldwide.org/shared/t ... 01_eng.php

Norwegian
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Norwegian » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:15 pm

dzoki wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:11 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:08 pm
No he doesnt.
The Doc Togden name is a joke which came about because he claimed (as a joke) to be the reincarnation of Doc Holliday of OK Corral fame.
If we are going to become indignant about Dharma practitioners who are not to our taste lets at least not make stuff up.
Well if it is a joke, then I am not sure, why they use it in a newspaper:

Image

as well as on their website:

http://aro-books-worldwide.org/shared/t ... 01_eng.php
I have no idea, but searching for the name on Google, gives you this: From another Aro person:

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Virgo
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:09 pm
And we are evenly occasionally invaded by crazy Malaysian Buddhist scholars who insist that black is white and white is black!
C'mon Malcolm now you sound like you have been following Teachers...

Kevin
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ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
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Simon E.
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:17 pm

He has NOT changed his name when in his role as a Dzogchen teacher.

I know him. I bet you don't Dzoki.

The name of the band, 'Wreckless Cabbage' should give some insight into the lack of seriousness here.

Would I take teachings from him? No.


But I know a lot of committed hard working Dharma students who do.
Last edited by Simon E. on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:18 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:08 pm
No he doesnt.
The Doc Togden name is a joke which came about because he claimed (as a joke) to be the reincarnation of Doc Holliday of OK Corral fame.
If we are going to become indignant about Dharma practitioners who are not to our taste lets at least not make stuff up.
There are videos out there on youtube of him playing music as "Doc Thogden".
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

dzoki
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by dzoki » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:18 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:15 pm
I have no idea, but searching for the name on Google, gives you this: From another Aro person:
goes now under the moniker of Doc Togden - a blues/country musician
Moniker = pseudonym.

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by DGA » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:21 pm

He's been performing as Doc Togden for years now. I recall a facebook fan page for him maybe seven or eight years ago.

What's the harm? He looks healthy and happy.

Simon E.
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:25 pm

Ok lets keep it very very simple.

When he is teaching Dharma he uses his legal name which is Ngagpa Chogyam.

He has a light-hearted side project which is country rock band.

In that capacity he has a stage name which is Doc Togden. For laughs. You know... chuckles.
Last edited by Simon E. on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

Simon E.
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:30 pm

But your critique was not his terma. He was you said, 'a clown' who was now 'going under the name Doc Togden'.
He isn't. Not in his dharma capacity.


But yes :focus:
Last edited by Simon E. on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Virgo
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:31 pm

Yes, a little bit of diversion is fine of course, so the conversation can flow, but at this point I would ask everyone to return to topic please.

Thank you,

Kevin


:focus: :focus: :focus:
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ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by PuerAzaelis » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:35 pm
halibut
Are u a fish-ist?
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Quay » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:41 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:46 am
...
Buddhism here in the UK has such variety, there is something to appeal to most tastes, and I'm sure the trappings play their part in recruitment and retention. For some, it may be Japanese dress and ritual, for others Thai, Tibetan etc. I am certainly guilty of treating 'the West' as if it comprises one culture, and of course our upbringing conditions us. I have no factual evidence, but observed in one mass empowerment that there was a very large contingent from 'Catholic' countries - maybe Tibetan ritual, incense etc. is a good fit if you were brought up with Latin chanting, lots of robes, saints etc etc....
I think this is always a good thing to be reminded of, that Buddhism is not a top-down religion where some kind of gods declared certain laws and ways and spell out the perils of non-compliance. Here Buddhas and Bodhisattvas manifest according to the needs of sentient beings and obviously some need what looks like fancy dress and complicated rituals while others prefer no elaboration at all. It's as it should be to me and if so many kinds of Buddhism tend to flourish I think that is a hopeful sign, generally speaking.
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There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
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The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

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Tiago Simões
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Tiago Simões » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:46 am
Buddhism here in the UK has such variety, there is something to appeal to most tastes, and I'm sure the trappings play their part in recruitment and retention. For some, it may be Japanese dress and ritual, for others Thai, Tibetan etc. I am certainly guilty of treating 'the West' as if it comprises one culture, and of course our upbringing conditions us. I have no factual evidence, but observed in one mass empowerment that there was a very large contingent from 'Catholic' countries - maybe Tibetan ritual, incense etc. is a good fit if you were brought up with Latin chanting, lots of robes, saints etc etc.
Latin chanting? Lol :tongue: I've been to Portuguese Catholic masses and never have I heard chanting in Latin... Robes, Saints and candles though yes, and many of them.

Generally I think, that is true, but it can also condition a person to have aversion to ritualism, so it depends. And yes, we should stop calling the diverse cultures of Europe and America, "The West".
Portugal is not the same as Finland, which is not the same as the USA, which is not the same as Brazil.

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:30 pm

The Aro Authenticity Debate is here: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27652

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:35 pm

tiagolps wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Latin chanting? Lol :tongue: I've been to Portuguese Catholic masses and never have I heard chanting in Latin... Robes, Saints and candles though yes, and many of them.
Another fantasy of mine shattered. Lol :)
I thought there were chunks of Latin in the rituals, a bit like when we have a sadhana in English and mandala offering and mantras in Tibetan.
And the fancy hats and staffs, censers. Ah, the chorister in me longs to put on the cassock again...... not.

Dragging it back to topic I wonder which saints would be most like Ngakpas..Francis maybe. John of Patmos as a Terton?
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Aryjna » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:41 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:35 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Latin chanting? Lol :tongue: I've been to Portuguese Catholic masses and never have I heard chanting in Latin... Robes, Saints and candles though yes, and many of them.
Another fantasy of mine shattered. Lol :)
I thought there were chunks of Latin in the rituals, a bit like when we have a sadhana in English and mandala offering and mantras in Tibetan.
And the fancy hats and staffs, censers. Ah, the chorister in me longs to put on the cassock again...... not.

Dragging it back to topic I wonder which saints would be most like Ngakpas..Francis maybe. John of Patmos as a Terton?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers These are pretty cool as far as Christians go :)

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:50 pm

Can't nake any specific saint who seems to fulfill the same roles as a ngagpa, but I think Christianity in the post-Roman collapse was in a similar situation to Tibet post-Imperial collapse. Rome's influence was weak, no one was persecuted for heresy, people and priests in the provinces engaged in "magical" rites and bishops acted as political and spiritual leaders, by leading prayers as well as soldiers defending their cities. C.f. Chris Wickham's books Framing the Earl Middle Ages and The Inheritance of Rome. He quoted this hermit who left a journal complaining how ordinary people bothered him asking for divination and other magical services while he just wanted to reside in solitude.

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Tiago Simões
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Tiago Simões » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:55 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:35 pm
Another fantasy of mine shattered. Lol :)
I thought there were chunks of Latin in the rituals, a bit like when we have a sadhana in English and mandala offering and mantras in Tibetan.
Latin serves little purpose nowadays in the Catholic Church. The mass can be conducted in Latin if the lay people request it as I understand. But it's for the romantic feelings only.

I'm out, I'm not a ngakpa.
:focus:

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by PeterC » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:49 am

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:48 pm
PeterC wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:16 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:33 pm


Wasn't he also someone whose actions led to the conviction and execution of an innocent illiterate and retarded man, and as a Judge let off an armed rapist with a very light sentence - which was the last straw which eventually led to the end of his career as a judge?

Odd for a Buddhist. Maybe not the role model for the modern Ngakpa.
Are you familiar with his career and his work on behalf of the Dharma, or just citing a few random facts out of context? I would recommend reading a bit more about his contributions before making offhand comments like that.

The conviction and execution was when he worked as a prosecutor. There was no suggestion of improper behaviour on his part, and that was after all his job.

He was absolutely not a model for a modern ngakpa of the type pictured above. He was a member of the establishment and worked very hard to gain society’s respect for Buddhism, including maintaining very conventional conduct. This might sound trivial now but in his day it was a very big deal.
Thanks for your concern. I'm British, old and know about him. I related him to Ngakpas as a way of dragging the thread back somewhere near the topic. You have added 'of the type pictured above' and deleted 'role' from 'role model'. My assertion was that he was not a good role model for a modern day Ngakpa to follow; or indeed any Buddhist, but we are discussing Ngakpas.

My apologies for finding someone (who goes easy on armed rape and works to secure the hanging of a retarded man on flimsy evidence) is a poor role model for Buddhists. There were others, like Olcott, who deserve some credit in the saga .......Humphreys was not remarkable. Being a member of 'the establishment', especially in chambers, is certainly one way of mixing with rogues and thieves, and not something of which I am in any awe, having mixed with many. ;)
I respectfully dissent. But let’s leave it at that, and get back to sharing photos of the Aro clowns, which is much more fun.

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