What it means to be a ngakpa

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Sennin
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Sennin » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:52 am

Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:41 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:35 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Latin chanting? Lol :tongue: I've been to Portuguese Catholic masses and never have I heard chanting in Latin... Robes, Saints and candles though yes, and many of them.
Another fantasy of mine shattered. Lol :)
I thought there were chunks of Latin in the rituals, a bit like when we have a sadhana in English and mandala offering and mantras in Tibetan.
And the fancy hats and staffs, censers. Ah, the chorister in me longs to put on the cassock again...... not.

Dragging it back to topic I wonder which saints would be most like Ngakpas..Francis maybe. John of Patmos as a Terton?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers These are pretty cool as far as Christians go :)
There's the bahtawi as well. They practice in remote places.
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liuzg150181
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by liuzg150181 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:53 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:09 pm
This is what I love about E-Sangha/DW/Vajracakra, etc. We can have basically civilized conversations about Buddhist hanging judges, that are occasionally soft on rapists, and who condemned Nazis to hang while practicing mindfulness of breathing with their spare time, etc., etc., in the middle of a conversation about whether there is a market for Ngakpa services, or whether it is even appropriate to use such language, the origin of the tradition, and so on. Keep up the good work! And we are evenly occasionally invaded by crazy Malaysian Buddhist scholars who insist that black is white and white is black!
:good:
Sums up what this forum is abt. :jumping:

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Mantrik
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Mantrik » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:48 am

KrisW wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:52 am
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:41 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:35 pm


Another fantasy of mine shattered. Lol :)
I thought there were chunks of Latin in the rituals, a bit like when we have a sadhana in English and mandala offering and mantras in Tibetan.
And the fancy hats and staffs, censers. Ah, the chorister in me longs to put on the cassock again...... not.

Dragging it back to topic I wonder which saints would be most like Ngakpas..Francis maybe. John of Patmos as a Terton?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers These are pretty cool as far as Christians go :)
There's the bahtawi as well. They practice in remote places.

hermet-ethiopia-bahatawi-rastafari-tv-450x370.jpg
Seems that throughout history and across the globe there are always people seeking spiritual practice in solitude, and others who are drawn into shamanic/medicine roles in their communities. It also seems to be the case that at some point, perhaps in order to make sense of it, people need to label a role, to establish a specific content, a hierarchy and rules.

Did Ngakpas always teach Dharma? Whose?

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a Ngakpa is only considered to be a Ngakpa if they conform to some sort of code of dress and behaviour others have invented for them, rather than it being a fairly loose generic term. It comes back again to the Guru, whose opinion should be the one which really matters. I don't know, but I'm guessing ChNN doesn't use the Ngakpa label for his followers because it immediately creates limitations. Perhaps that's best.
Last edited by Mantrik on Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tiago Simões
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Tiago Simões » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:16 am

Here is a thought that came to me. Jivaka Komarabhacca, he was the Buddhas doctor.

Image

I always imagine a true ngakpa to be like him. Maybe just my fantasy.
Jivaka helped in many ways. When Devadatta threw down a rock splinter and injured the Buddha's foot, it was Jivaka who healed him.
It was also at Jivaka’s request that the Buddha established that monks should sweep the compound of the monastery and attend to other duties that would exercise their bodies. Jivaka, seeing the benefit of exercise for a healthy life, requested this and other mild duties to be performed by the monks to ensure their health. With foresight, love and compassion the devoted Jivaka took care of the physical health of the Buddha and His Sangha.

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Grigoris
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:14 pm

tiagolps wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Latin chanting? Lol :tongue: I've been to Portuguese Catholic masses and never have I heard chanting in Latin... Robes, Saints and candles though yes, and many of them.
That is because you are too young. Originally the mass was chanted in Latin in all countries, if I remember correctly it was only in the a late 60's early 70's (1964) that the Catholic church decided to change the mass to local languages/vernacular.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:27 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:48 am
I don't know, but I'm guessing ChNN doesn't use the Ngakpa label for his followers because it immediately creates limitations. Perhaps that's best.
Limitations??? Anyway, I guess you should just follow your teacher's advice and I should follow mine and that way we will all be happy.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:14 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Latin chanting? Lol :tongue: I've been to Portuguese Catholic masses and never have I heard chanting in Latin... Robes, Saints and candles though yes, and many of them.
That is because you are too young. Originally the mass was chanted in Latin in all countries, if I remember correctly it was only in the a late 60's early 70's (1964) that the Catholic church decided to change the mass to local languages/vernacular.
Aye. Pope John. Since then there is a large swell within the Catholic church to go back to the Latin Rite, with many churches having special masses to that end. Apparently, they are well attended. Particularly by the young.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Tiago Simões
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Tiago Simões » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:02 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:50 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:14 pm
tiagolps wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Latin chanting? Lol :tongue: I've been to Portuguese Catholic masses and never have I heard chanting in Latin... Robes, Saints and candles though yes, and many of them.
That is because you are too young. Originally the mass was chanted in Latin in all countries, if I remember correctly it was only in the a late 60's early 70's (1964) that the Catholic church decided to change the mass to local languages/vernacular.
Aye. Pope John. Since then there is a large swell within the Catholic church to go back to the Latin Rite, with many churches having special masses to that end. Apparently, they are well attended. Particularly by the young.
*Grigoris Yes, I meant nowadays in a more traditional setting.

*Simon E.
The number of Latin masses celebrated around the world has been rising since 2007, but only slowly and from a tiny base. A recent report by Una Voce, an international pro-Latin group, said most growth was in the United States, Britain and France with bishops in developing countries -- where a growing majority of Catholics lives -- showing little or no interest. It sent the Vatican a confidential list of bishops it said were not complying with the decree to allow the Latin mass more often.

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:22 pm

My understanding is that the Catholic churches in the UK which hold Latin Masses are among the most influential in the Catholic community..they include Brompton Street Oratory, The Jesuit church in Farm Street, and St James Spanish Place, which are centres of Catholic intellectual and liturgical life in the UK.

I think their influence will be pivotal over the next few decades.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Mantrik
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Mantrik » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:02 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:27 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:48 am
I don't know, but I'm guessing ChNN doesn't use the Ngakpa label for his followers because it immediately creates limitations. Perhaps that's best.
Limitations??? Anyway, I guess you should just follow your teacher's advice and I should follow mine and that way we will all be happy.
Of course defining yourself by a narrow set of criteria is a limitation. Taking vows is a limitation.
You seem to always regard comments as negative. Some people need limitations and it is good for them to be closely guided if their behaviour may stray. I can't imagine that LOTR would deny that he has expectations of his Ngakpas which limit their behaviour..........or what would be the point of the ordination?
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by DGA » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:04 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:02 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:27 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:48 am
I don't know, but I'm guessing ChNN doesn't use the Ngakpa label for his followers because it immediately creates limitations. Perhaps that's best.
Limitations??? Anyway, I guess you should just follow your teacher's advice and I should follow mine and that way we will all be happy.
Of course defining yourself by a narrow set of criteria is a limitation. Taking vows is a limitation.
You seem to always regard comments as negative. Some people need limitations and it is good for them to be closely guided if their behaviour may stray. I can't imagine that LOTR would deny that he has expectations of his Ngakpas which limit their behaviour..........or what would be the point of the ordination?
Hold on, are we discussing an ordination when we discuss the process by which one becomes a ngakpa?

or is it an empowerment (with samaya to observe)?

or...?

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Mantrik
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Mantrik » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:16 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:04 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:02 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:27 pm
Limitations??? Anyway, I guess you should just follow your teacher's advice and I should follow mine and that way we will all be happy.
Of course defining yourself by a narrow set of criteria is a limitation. Taking vows is a limitation.
You seem to always regard comments as negative. Some people need limitations and it is good for them to be closely guided if their behaviour may stray. I can't imagine that LOTR would deny that he has expectations of his Ngakpas which limit their behaviour..........or what would be the point of the ordination?
Hold on, are we discussing an ordination when we discuss the process by which one becomes a ngakpa?

or is it an empowerment (with samaya to observe)?

or...?
It varies, of course, as the whole thread has explored in a way, but each person has to decide what suits them. Of course if you decide on a certain Guru and accept empowerments, vows etc from them, and their way is to ordain Ngakpas, then you are limited in your choices.

As far as I know ChNN doesn't insist on such things, nor does he preclude people from being Ngakpas under other Lamas, or in any other way.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Mantrik » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:23 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:22 pm
My understanding is that the Catholic churches in the UK which hold Latin Masses are among the most influential in the Catholic community..they include Brompton Street Oratory, The Jesuit church in Farm Street, and St James Spanish Place, which are centres of Catholic intellectual and liturgical life in the UK.

I think their influence will be pivotal over the next few decades.
I hope it is preserved. I was basing my original comment on what I remember from early 1960's when we choirboys received half a crown for weddings and five bob for funerals, endured sharp bakelite collars, and I inhaled as much incense as I could in between aniseed twists. Loved the ritual side of things.....guess I still do! :)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:25 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:02 pm
Of course defining yourself by a narrow set of criteria is a limitation. Taking vows is a limitation.
Hello! Vows in Vajrayana are liberatory. Remember?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:32 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:04 pm
or is it an empowerment (with samaya to observe)?
^^^This^^^ in the Dudjom Tersar.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by DGA » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:32 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:04 pm
or is it an empowerment (with samaya to observe)?
^^^This^^^ in the Dudjom Tersar.
This is why, I think, the language ChNN uses around vows as an appropriate limitation for a Hinayana practitioner might not be appropriately applied in this context.

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Malcolm
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:25 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:02 pm
Of course defining yourself by a narrow set of criteria is a limitation. Taking vows is a limitation.
Hello! Vows in Vajrayana are liberatory. Remember?
A famous Khenpo, the teacher of my teacher Khenpo Migmar, told Khenpo Migmar, "Sometimes, taking a vow is taking a vow to create more nonvirtue."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:11 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:47 pm
This is why, I think, the language ChNN uses around vows as an appropriate limitation for a Hinayana practitioner might not be appropriately applied in this context.
ChNN (long life to him) is a particular teacher, in a specific lineage, with a certain view. Now while his views may be of tantamount importance to his students, it does not mean that they are generally applicable in all circumstances by all.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by DGA » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:13 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:11 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:47 pm
This is why, I think, the language ChNN uses around vows as an appropriate limitation for a Hinayana practitioner might not be appropriately applied in this context.
ChNN (long life to him) is a particular teacher, in a specific lineage, with a certain view. Now while his views may be of tantamount importance to his students, it does not mean that they are generally applicable in all circumstances by all.
I was going a step further than that: ChNN's comments on the use of vows by HInayana practitioners, which is what Mantrik described, doesn't seem warranted to a discussion about Vajrayana and samaya.

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by DGA » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:25 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:02 pm
Of course defining yourself by a narrow set of criteria is a limitation. Taking vows is a limitation.
Hello! Vows in Vajrayana are liberatory. Remember?
A famous Khenpo, the teacher of my teacher Khenpo Migmar, told Khenpo Migmar, "Sometimes, taking a vow is taking a vow to create more nonvirtue."
Do you think this is one of those times?

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