The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Boris
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Boris » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:24 pm
There are plenty of Buddhists who think Krishnamurti is a fine fellow and that his teachings are wonderful, some of them are quite famous as well. Are they wrong?
If this report is correct, maybe it has some value.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:57 pm

Boris wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:24 pm
There are plenty of Buddhists who think Krishnamurti is a fine fellow and that his teachings are wonderful, some of them are quite famous as well. Are they wrong?
If this report is correct, maybe it has some value.


You're citing CTR? Wasn't that guy an alcoholic and womanizer?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:16 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:11 pm
The Buddha is not here asserting the Dharme is permanent or eternal. He is asserting that in the course of practice during the night he awakened fully that in reviewing his past lifetimes he recalled the teaching he had received from past buddhas.
Say what??? Here is the original for context: http://lirs.ru/lib/sutra/Connected_Disc ... .Vol.I.pdf Starting on page 299 of the PDF, page 601 of the book.

He makes a mention of his sorjurn in Sattvhi as a Bodhisattva but it is not clear whether he is talking about his current life just prior to his enlightenment (this is a Theravada text, remember, so the Buddha was not enlightened until he plonked his ass down under the bodhi tree, up until that fateful occasion he was a Bodhisattva). Also there is no mention in the text about teachings from previous Buddhas.

So... No!
The Buddha when referred to prior to his awakening is called the Bodhisattva in Hinayāna texts.

In the Bhayabherava Sutta Buddha mentions that he recalled his myriad pasts lives, who he was, what his name was an so on during the first watch of the night of his awakening, prior to gaining awakening. You really think during that time he did not recall teachings he received from Buddhas in the past?

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Adamantine
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Adamantine » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:19 pm

:thanks:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:57 pm
Boris wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:24 pm
There are plenty of Buddhists who think Krishnamurti is a fine fellow and that his teachings are wonderful, some of them are quite famous as well. Are they wrong?
If this report is correct, maybe it has some value.


You're citing CTR? Wasn't that guy an alcoholic and womanizer?
Maybe off topic.... however I'm quite eager to know who the female Buddhist reincarnation of Gurdjieff is! :popcorn:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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dzogchungpa
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:34 am

Adamantine wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:19 pm
:thanks:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:57 pm
Boris wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:44 pm
If this report is correct, maybe it has some value.


You're citing CTR? Wasn't that guy an alcoholic and womanizer?
Maybe off topic.... however I'm quite eager to know who the female Buddhist reincarnation of Gurdjieff is! :popcorn:


Me too! Some of that Gurdjieff stuff is very well spoken.


Anyway, it's really amazing how cathartic this debate has been, isn't it? I feel, like, so much more relaxed now.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:36 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:34 am
Me too! Some of that Gurdjieff stuff is very well spoken.


Anyway, it's really amazing how cathartic this debate has been, isn't it? I feel, like, so much more relaxed now.
Lol I’m thinking you’re sort of evil.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:15 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:34 am
Adamantine wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:19 pm
:thanks:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:57 pm




You're citing CTR? Wasn't that guy an alcoholic and womanizer?
Maybe off topic.... however I'm quite eager to know who the female Buddhist reincarnation of Gurdjieff is! :popcorn:


Me too! Some of that Gurdjieff stuff is very well spoken.


Anyway, it's really amazing how cathartic this debate has been, isn't it? I feel, like, so much more relaxed now.
:smile:

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heart
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by heart » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:37 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:34 am
Adamantine wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:19 pm
:thanks:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:57 pm




You're citing CTR? Wasn't that guy an alcoholic and womanizer?
Maybe off topic.... however I'm quite eager to know who the female Buddhist reincarnation of Gurdjieff is! :popcorn:


Me too! Some of that Gurdjieff stuff is very well spoken.

And now you know! I follow her on facebook she seems like an unusual girl.

http://www.celticbuddhism.org/lineage.html

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:01 am

heart wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:37 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:34 am
Adamantine wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:19 pm
:thanks:

Maybe off topic.... however I'm quite eager to know who the female Buddhist reincarnation of Gurdjieff is! :popcorn:


Me too! Some of that Gurdjieff stuff is very well spoken.

And now you know! I follow her on facebook she seems like an unusual girl.

http://www.celticbuddhism.org/lineage.html

/magnus


Now that's interesting.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Tiago Simões
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:21 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:01 am
heart wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:37 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:34 am




Me too! Some of that Gurdjieff stuff is very well spoken.

And now you know! I follow her on facebook she seems like an unusual girl.

http://www.celticbuddhism.org/lineage.html

/magnus


Now that's interesting.
Are the celtic Buddhists an authentic nyingma lineage?
...
*The celtic buddhists Authenticity Debate starts here*

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Grigoris
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:43 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:16 pm
The Buddha when referred to prior to his awakening is called the Bodhisattva in Hinayāna texts.
Are you repeating my point for your sake or for mine? :roll:
In the Bhayabherava Sutta Buddha mentions that he recalled his myriad pasts lives, who he was, what his name was an so on during the first watch of the night of his awakening, prior to gaining awakening. You really think during that time he did not recall teachings he received from Buddhas in the past?
Ummmmm... We are not discussing the Bhayabherava Sutta (MN 4), we are discussing SN 12.65. Regardless of this fact, in MN 4 it is still not 100% clear whether he is referring to realisations arising during his life as a Bodhisattva in his last life (but prior to his enlightenment during his last life) or in a previous life. Like I said: unlike Mahayana where the Buddha was already a Buddha before his appearance in this world, in Theravada he was a Bodhisattva up until the point where he sat under the bodhi tree and achieved enlightenment (but now I am repeating myself).

He does mention recollection of his past lives in MN 4, but he makes no mention of his knowledge arising from teachings he received from other Buddhas. So I fail to see why you mention the particular Sutta as it is not really evidence against the notion that Dharma is eternal ie it does not contradict my interpretation of SN 12.65.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:55 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:38 pm
Tsoknyi Rinpoche has this thing where he says ok, I'm now going to give you the final ultimate super-secret mantra empowerment please sit up and pay attention - "who cares?" That's it. Oh, wait, I forgot to make it super holy - "Om, who cares, Soha". :rolling:
It doesn't get more establishment ("authentic") than Tsoknyi Rinpoche: a tulku from a family of tulku, holder of two lineages, has his own monastery, taught by some of the greatest teachers around, etc...

Shiiiiiitttt... He even has Richard Gere officially listed as a student.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:21 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:02 pm
Has anybody here seen the terma/teaching/sadhana?
I have, partially; when i was looking for karmamudra teachings/instructions i've examined a few words without knowing of it's controversy and discarded it. Sorry. It lacked substance.

Don't know if this satisfy you all haha, it's only my experience, which is as valid as yours. Maybe someone else has karma or something for this to be useful in some way.
_______

Btw, in the end i need oral -not from a book-
instructions on Naropa's yogas, which contains the secondary practice of karmamudra, from a experienced lama/yogin, and the very best is taking Chakrasamvara initiation also, and of course integrate with the yidam. For recive this -specifically the karmamudra directions- i need to proove myself as a serious yogin. This is no toy, i mean it... i need some luck. That's of someone also want some info about.

And guys, the are quarrels here... kaliyuga sounds familiar?
Identities are false and not true

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Mantrik
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:42 am

Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:21 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:01 am
heart wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:37 am


And now you know! I follow her on facebook she seems like an unusual girl.

http://www.celticbuddhism.org/lineage.html

/magnus


Now that's interesting.
Are the celtic Buddhists an authentic nyingma lineage?
...
*The celtic buddhists Authenticity Debate starts here*
Well here's one of their profiles. There's also a Rinpoche! This one mentions being recognised by ChNN asa teacher:

''Venerable Thom Kilts was ordained with his wife Sarah at the Oracle statue on Boa Island in Ireland in 2007. He has a lifetime of Buddhist training in both secular and monastic settings. Thom was endorsed by Tulku Thondup Rinpoche and Chogyal Namkhai Rinpoche separately as a Dharma Teacher in the Nyingmapa Lineage of Vajrayana Buddhism before becoming a Lineage Holder of Celtic Buddhism. ''
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

PeterC
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PeterC » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:32 pm

Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:21 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:01 am
heart wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:37 am


And now you know! I follow her on facebook she seems like an unusual girl.

http://www.celticbuddhism.org/lineage.html

/magnus


Now that's interesting.
Are the celtic Buddhists an authentic nyingma lineage?
...
*The celtic buddhists Authenticity Debate starts here*
Just because all teachings *might* be valid, it does not follow that all *are* valid. Some are just delusional.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Miroku » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:55 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:32 pm
Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:21 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:01 am




Now that's interesting.
Are the celtic Buddhists an authentic nyingma lineage?
...
*The celtic buddhists Authenticity Debate starts here*
Just because all teachings *might* be valid, it does not follow that all *are* valid. Some are just delusional.
Time to create slavic buddhism. All the teachings can be traced to buddha Vždydobroj (Samantabhadra) and Diamantomysl... okay bit harder than expected.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Grigoris
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:15 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:21 am
I have, partially; when i was looking for karmamudra teachings/instructions i've examined a few words without knowing of it's controversy and discarded it. Sorry. It lacked substance.

Don't know if this satisfy you all haha, it's only my experience, which is as valid as yours. Maybe someone else has karma or something for this to be useful in some way.
_______

Btw, in the end i need oral -not from a book-
instructions on Naropa's yogas, which contains the secondary practice of karmamudra, from a experienced lama/yogin, and the very best is taking Chakrasamvara initiation also, and of course integrate with the yidam. For recive this -specifically the karmamudra directions- i need to proove myself as a serious yogin. This is no toy, i mean it... i need some luck. That's of someone also want some info about.

And guys, the are quarrels here... kaliyuga sounds familiar?
You need oral karmamudra, huh? Don't we all? :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:21 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:42 am
Well here's one of their profiles. There's also a Rinpoche! This one mentions being recognised by ChNN asa teacher:

''Venerable Thom Kilts was ordained with his wife Sarah at the Oracle statue on Boa Island in Ireland in 2007. He has a lifetime of Buddhist training in both secular and monastic settings. Thom was endorsed by Tulku Thondup Rinpoche and Chogyal Namkhai Rinpoche separately as a Dharma Teacher in the Nyingmapa Lineage of Vajrayana Buddhism before becoming a Lineage Holder of Celtic Buddhism. ''
He is a "Venerable" (ie a monastic) and married?

Well I guess, like somebody else around here said: If they believe it, it must be true.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:21 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:42 am
Well here's one of their profiles. There's also a Rinpoche! This one mentions being recognised by ChNN asa teacher:

''Venerable Thom Kilts was ordained with his wife Sarah at the Oracle statue on Boa Island in Ireland in 2007. He has a lifetime of Buddhist training in both secular and monastic settings. Thom was endorsed by Tulku Thondup Rinpoche and Chogyal Namkhai Rinpoche separately as a Dharma Teacher in the Nyingmapa Lineage of Vajrayana Buddhism before becoming a Lineage Holder of Celtic Buddhism. ''
He is a "Venerable" (ie a monastic) and married?

Well I guess, like somebody else around here said: If they believe it, it must be true.
I'd suggest starting another thread, but the founder of this group of Knights, Rinpoches, Venerables etc. has already been discussed here on DW re. 'Celtic Buddhism'. It's one thing to have a fantasy lineage..........and quite another to claim authority from a living Master, ChNN, to teach in the Nyingma.

As far as I know ChNN does not give people authority to teach in the Nyingma lineage; is this correct?

If the guy is earning money off the back of this, leaving aside the whacky Dharma stuff, it could be fraud. Unless, of course, there is another Chogyal Namkhai....
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Tiago Simões
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:05 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:39 pm
I'd suggest starting another thread, but the founder of this group of Knights, Rinpoches, Venerables etc. has already been discussed here on DW re. 'Celtic Buddhism'. It's one thing to have a fantasy lineage..........and quite another to claim authority from a living Master, ChNN, to teach in the Nyingma.

As far as I know ChNN does not give people authority to teach in the Nyingma lineage; is this correct?

If the guy is earning money off the back of this, leaving aside the whacky Dharma stuff, it could be fraud. Unless, of course, there is another Chogyal Namkhai....
From what I understand, they were inspired by Trungpa Rinpoche. Personally an attempt to try and join a living tradition (Vajrayana) and a dead recreated religion (celtic neo-paganism) can only end in a pretty silly joke. :tongue:

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