The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:14 pm
The usual excuse Buddhists give for Bonpo texts is that some kind Buddhist wrote a text using Bonpo lingo, in order to establish some kind of connection for Bonpos with Buddhism. But what of Bon texts that have no contact with Buddhists? Do they lack blessings?
One could then ask: Do Hindu and Abrahamic (and etc...) texts lack blessings?

If you say yes then you are asserting that there is an objective measure/standard (Dharma as the source of blessings), so this extreme subjectivism you are engaging in is invalid.

If you say no, then there is no Dharma, and anything goes.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:31 pm

There is one thing positive that has come out of this discussion: Mantrik and Simon E have finally found something they agree on! :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:36 pm

Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:59 pm
Is there any "objective reality"?
Dharma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:23 pm
that your support for the authenticity of Aro gTer is also based on your own jaundiced eye. In which case you just hoisted yourself on your own petard.

Who ever said I supported it's validity. I am just tired of seeing people beating them up over and over again for no better reason other than to exercise their own prejudices and to confirm their own egos.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:39 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:23 pm
that your support for the authenticity of Aro gTer is also based on your own jaundiced eye. In which case you just hoisted yourself on your own petard.

Who ever said I supported it's validity. I am just tired of seeing people beating them up over and over again for no better reason other than to exercise their own prejudices and to confirm their own egos.
Well, I hope you apply this attitude to other groups and traditions too and don't restrict it just to the specific one. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:30 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:14 pm
The usual excuse Buddhists give for Bonpo texts is that some kind Buddhist wrote a text using Bonpo lingo, in order to establish some kind of connection for Bonpos with Buddhism. But what of Bon texts that have no contact with Buddhists? Do they lack blessings?
One could then ask: Do Hindu and Abrahamic (and etc...) texts lack blessings?

If you say yes then you are asserting that there is an objective measure/standard (Dharma as the source of blessings), so this extreme subjectivism you are engaging in is invalid.

If you say no, then there is no Dharma, and anything goes.
Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Jews feel blessed by their own texts and traditions. I don't feel any blessings from their texts or traditions at all.

So the answer is both yes and no. For me, those texts have no blessings. But I certainly would not claim that they feel no blessings from those texts and traditions.

As far as I am concerned, "blessing" is a word people use to express their satisfaction that they have made a good spiritual choice for themselves, and is nothing more than this.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:51 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:39 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:23 pm
that your support for the authenticity of Aro gTer is also based on your own jaundiced eye. In which case you just hoisted yourself on your own petard.

Who ever said I supported it's validity. I am just tired of seeing people beating them up over and over again for no better reason other than to exercise their own prejudices and to confirm their own egos.
Well, I hope you apply this attitude to other groups and traditions too and don't restrict it just to the specific one. ;)
I reserve the right to be completely inconsistent.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Fa Dao » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:51 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:39 pm



Who ever said I supported it's validity. I am just tired of seeing people beating them up over and over again for no better reason other than to exercise their own prejudices and to confirm their own egos.
Well, I hope you apply this attitude to other groups and traditions too and don't restrict it just to the specific one. ;)
I reserve the right to be completely inconsistent.
Right on! welcome to being over 50 :rolling:
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:50 pm
Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Jews feel blessed by their own texts and traditions. I don't feel any blessings from their texts or traditions at all.

So the answer is both yes and no. For me, those texts have no blessings. But I certainly would not claim that they feel no blessings from those texts and traditions.
I didn't ask if people feel or do not feel blessings, I asked if the texts lack blessing.

As far as I am concerned, "blessing" is a word people use to express their satisfaction that they have made a good spiritual choice for themselves, and is nothing more than this.
Then why did you bring it up as a measure of the "Buddhist" validity of Bon texts?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:01 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:31 pm
There is one thing positive that has come out of this discussion: Mantrik and Simon E have finally found something they agree on! :smile:
I think you might misunderstand our relationship.. :smile: We are Brit codgers of a certain age with a lot in common.... which means we sometimes fall out.
'We have a physical body with its various needs. Each day we have to eat, sleep, rest and so on.
This is our reality and we can't ignore it'

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:31 pm
There is one thing positive that has come out of this discussion: Mantrik and Simon E have finally found something they agree on! :smile:
We agree on many many things. Far more than we disagree upon. :)

But this particular thread has actually been really really informative and stimulating and I have learned a great deal.

I am delighted that it has been allowed to run along so many avenues, far more important than Aro per se, because it explores the very nature of Terma and the nature of Dharma.

Malcolm remarked on the nature of DW, and this exemplifies how we can explore sensitive issues really robustly and learn from the experience. Sure, some may see the exchanges as somehow 'unkind' or 'uncompassionate' but that would be to miss the point that nothing is worth a cent if it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Quay » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:30 pm
...

In the end, śabdapramāṇa amounts to no more than this, as the great Dzogchen master and scholar, Gendun Chophel remarks:

Whatever most people like appears as the truth; whatever most mouths agree on appears as a philosophical tenet. Inside of each person is a different form of valid knowledge, with an adamantine scripture supporting it.

Madman's Middle Way, pg. 63.

And:

Inferential valid knowledge is produced from direct awareness; inference analyzes whether direct perception is true or false; because the child is serving as the father's witness, I am uncomfortable about positing conventional validity.

Madman's Middle Way, pg. 62

And finally, to demonstrate the poverty of your wish for a certain proof that anything can be proven to be true or false with respect to validating a treasure and any other teaching at all:

One may think:"We concede that our decisions are unreliable, but when we follow the decisions of the Buddha, we are infallible." Then who decided the Buddha was infallible? If you say, "The great scholars and adepts like Nāgārjuna decided that he was infallible," then who decided that Nāgārjuna was infallible? If you say, "The Foremost Lama [Tshong kha pa] decided it," then who knows that the Foremost Lama is infallible? If you say, "Our kind and peerless lama, the excellent and great so and so decided," than infallibility, which depends on your own excellent lama, is decided by your own mind. In fact, therefore, it is a tiger who vouches for a lion, it is a yak who vouches for a tiger, it is a dog who vouches for a yak, it is a mouse who vouches for a dog, it is an insect who vouches for a mouse. Thus, an insect is made the final voucher for them all. Therefore, when one analyzes in detail the final basis for any decision, apart from coming back to one's own mind, nothing else whatsoever is perceived.

Madman's Middle Way, pp. 49-50
Parenthetically, I appreciate your posting these quotes. I ordered the book (Lopez translation) yesterday and am very much looking forward to reading it more than once. You note it's been with your for a decade & I hope for a similar kind of thing.

It's interesting to me in this thread that more than a few people don't seem to understand that it all finally comes down to individually accepting or rejecting, however much lineage, citations, validations, and the like are there or not. Since no one has done all the work to do all that themselves (and it's impossible with historical figures anyway) at some point you are accepting things on what is essentially faith. Faith in other people or their process or their biographer's notions. And then at base it is faith in one's own experience, whether something works for you or not.

This is actually very good news. Because it means that just as Shakyamuni Buddha taught, it all comes down to each person. If it were otherwise, well, it wouldn't be such good news.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by jake » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:46 pm
Harold, what the hell does Marjorie Quinn have to do with Aro?
I just want to ask. Am I the only one that googled "Marjorie Quinn" and was really confused as to why Malcolm reference Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman?
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:50 pm
Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Jews feel blessed by their own texts and traditions. I don't feel any blessings from their texts or traditions at all.

So the answer is both yes and no. For me, those texts have no blessings. But I certainly would not claim that they feel no blessings from those texts and traditions.
I didn't ask if people feel or do not feel blessings, I asked if the texts lack blessing.
And I answered you per the following:

As far as I am concerned, "blessing" is a word people use to express their satisfaction that they have made a good spiritual choice for themselves, and is nothing more than this.
Then why did you bring it up as a measure of the "Buddhist" validity of Bon texts?
Dzoki said Aro treasures have no blessings, because he is apparently well versed in ascertaining such things, so I thought examining some possibilities about "blessings" was relevant, since people are always saying, This lineage has blessings," "this lineage has lost its blessings," "this lineage has no blessings," and so on.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Quay
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Quay » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:51 pm
I reserve the right to be completely inconsistent.
:cheers:
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:06 pm

jake wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:46 pm
Harold, what the hell does Marjorie Quinn have to do with Aro?
I just want to ask. Am I the only one that googled "Marjorie Quinn" and was really confused as to why Malcolm reference Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman?
That's pretty funny -- Marjorie Quinn is the original name of the women who nows goes by the name Domo Geshe.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Quay
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Quay » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:36 pm
Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:59 pm
Is there any "objective reality"?
Dharma.
No, Dharma is simply another fabrication. The difference though between it and most everything else is that it is not an untrue fabrication.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

Simon E.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:10 pm

It all boils down to upaya doesn't it?
'We have a physical body with its various needs. Each day we have to eat, sleep, rest and so on.
This is our reality and we can't ignore it'

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:30 pm

I like Machik Labdron's point of view, and I really think it applies to everyone, especially me:


Since the Dharma is practiced with a clinging mind
because the mind that clings to Dharma is not destroyed,
even the Dharma becomes a support of bondage.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Quay
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Quay » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:30 pm
I like Machik Labdron's point of view, and I really think it applies to everyone, especially me:


Since the Dharma is practiced with a clinging mind
because the mind that clings to Dharma is not destroyed,
even the Dharma becomes a support of bondage.
I love this, cling to it almost. Applies to me most definitely.

Reminds me of the Metaphor of Plato's Cave, except that in Dharma the world outside the cave is just as illusory as the shadows within.

But back to topic, if the folks at Aro and their practices help people to reduce all of the clinging and even eliminate it, then good for them. Since it's not my path I can't say one way or the other. Though to bastardize John Donne, "Beer does more than someone else's practice can/to justify my own ways over any other man's."
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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