The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Harold Musetescu
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Harold Musetescu » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:56 pm

"Harold, what the hell does Marjorie Quinn have to do with Aro?"

Well Malcolm It has everything to do with Aro and other questionable lineages.

It has to do with the after mat of the devastating damage to these souls.

Some have spent decades before discovering the truth and that truth can utterly destroy them and turn them from the dharma.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:13 pm

methar wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:56 pm
"Harold, what the hell does Marjorie Quinn have to do with Aro?"

Well Malcolm It has everything to do with Aro and other questionable lineages.

It has to do with the after mat of the devastating damage to these souls.

Some have spent decades before discovering the truth and that truth can utterly destroy them and turn them from the dharma.
I'm not Malcolm but I'll give this one a shot.

No one should be a sucker. It's of the utmost importance to ask an ocean of question before getting involved with any Dharma scene or making a commitment to a particular teacher. And once you've committed, of course you keep your eyes open and not fool yourself into thinking that the emperor is fully dressed when you know full well her ass is hanging out. I don't think anyone in this thread is advising anyone else to be a dupe.

I think karma is a factor here too. There are specific actions one can take that can become causes for later following a false teacher or teaching. So don't engage in those actions.

However, for those of us who are not interested in becoming students of the Aro gTer, these questions don't seem like a good use of our time (or at least not to me).

And no, I wouldn't advise anyone to become a student of Ms Quinn, if anyone asked my opinion of the matter.

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Tiago Simões
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Tiago Simões » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:19 pm

I think there is an important factor that hasn't come up yet in the discussion...

Are there ex-students of the Aro gTer? And if yes, why have they left...? If no, then they must be doing something right... Maybe it's all the nude rituals 😂.

Joking aside, I am neither pro nor against them.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:31 pm

Tiago Simões wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:19 pm
I think there is an important factor that hasn't come up yet in the discussion...

Are there ex-students of the Aro gTer? And if yes, why have they left...? If no, then they must be doing something right... Maybe it's all the nude rituals 😂.

Joking aside, I am neither pro nor against them.
That's an interesting point. What I can tell you is I first came across them 20 odd years ago and they have remained a remarkably stable group both in the sense of the individual members and in their lack of hysteria and absence of paranoia. They have never gone for numbers, and have few of the key factors that identify a cult.* You will find no sexual scandals or financial shenanigans around them.


*NB No group has none of those factors.
Last edited by Simon E. on Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:32 pm

methar wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:56 pm
"Harold, what the hell does Marjorie Quinn have to do with Aro?"

Well Malcolm It has everything to do with Aro and other questionable lineages.

It has to do with the after mat of the devastating damage to these souls.

Some have spent decades before discovering the truth and that truth can utterly destroy them and turn them from the dharma.
Harold, Marjorie clearly has a personality disorder, in my opinion.

But you clearly are not paying attention to the fact one person's questionable lineage is another persons Dharma tradition. So far, no one has produced one, single shred of evidence the Aro folks are teaching a dharma that contradicts the Dharma.

For example, lets take the Bonpo teaching -- is this valid Dharma or not? We can see that point for point Bonpos teach everything we find in Buddhism. If we think it is a copy, is it invalid because it is a copy, even though the meaning is the same in every way, through and through? If the meaning is the same, why won't the result be the same? If the copy is invalid, how can the original be valid? And if the original is valid, how can a copy be invalid if the meaning, point for point, is the same in every respect?

The same thing goes with Aro -- let us suppose it is just a copy of Nyingma termas -- let us suppose they have the seven line prayer revealed as part of the supposed treasures of an Aro Lingma of questionable historicity. Let us also suppose that these Aroistas chant this Aro seven line prayer, identical in every respect with the original apart from lineage, with total faith and devotion in Guru Rinpoche, and so on. Are you or any one else seriously claiming they will receive no blessings at all from this faithful copy? On the face of it, it is a claim that not only borders on the absurd, it falls headlong into absurdity.It is also a claim rooted in a pernicious fundamentalism we really should eradicate from Buddhism.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Harold Musetescu
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Harold Musetescu » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:34 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:44 pm
Thank you for your concern Methar.


I'll take my chances... :smile:
It won't be you taking the chance!!!

Or are you Simon E taking a chance with Aro?????
:spy: :spy: :spy:

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:22 pm

methar wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:37 pm
What will your KARMA be Simon E for your advice about Aro?
I think someone needs a teacher to tell them what 'KARMA' means.
Also check out 'VIPAKA'.

I put them in capitals for you in case you miss the key words. ;)
http://www.khyung.com

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:26 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:22 pm
methar wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:37 pm
What will your KARMA be Simon E for your advice about Aro?
I think someone needs a teacher to tell them what 'KARMA' means.
Also check out 'VIPAKA'.

I put them in capitals for you in case you miss the key words. ;)
:twothumbsup:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:30 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:49 pm
And now we are claiming that Aro can be valid just because the students believe it?
I don't think anyone has given that view. I think several of us are trying to say that since it is impossible to prove 'validity' of sources etc. we each have to make up our own minds.

If we make progress with a particular practice, that is the acid test of it. That applies to the Aro followers as well as ourselves.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Pero » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:32 pm
...
The same thing goes with Aro -- let us suppose it is just a copy of Nyingma termas -- let us suppose they have the seven line prayer revealed as part of the supposed treasures of an Aro Lingma of questionable historicity. Let us also suppose that these Aroistas chant this Aro seven line prayer, identical in every respect with the original apart from lineage, with total faith and devotion in Guru Rinpoche, and so on. Are you or any one else seriously claiming they will receive no blessings at all from this faithful copy? On the face of it, it is a claim that not only borders on the absurd, it falls headlong into absurdity.It is also a claim rooted in a pernicious fundamentalism we really should eradicate from Buddhism.
However, wouldn't with this logic empowerments and lungs be rendered meaningless? I just copy an empowerment from a text I found somewhere and start bestowing it, people believe it as genuine, voila, blessings. :shrug:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:43 pm

Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:32 pm
...
The same thing goes with Aro -- let us suppose it is just a copy of Nyingma termas -- let us suppose they have the seven line prayer revealed as part of the supposed treasures of an Aro Lingma of questionable historicity. Let us also suppose that these Aroistas chant this Aro seven line prayer, identical in every respect with the original apart from lineage, with total faith and devotion in Guru Rinpoche, and so on. Are you or any one else seriously claiming they will receive no blessings at all from this faithful copy? On the face of it, it is a claim that not only borders on the absurd, it falls headlong into absurdity.It is also a claim rooted in a pernicious fundamentalism we really should eradicate from Buddhism.
However, wouldn't with this logic empowerments and lungs be rendered meaningless? I just copy an empowerment from a text I found somewhere and start bestowing it, people believe it as genuine, voila, blessings. :shrug:
If I have not understood the Aro teaching here then I beg their pardon, but I think they are saying that empowerments and lungs have no objective reality anyway no matter what the source. That their efficaciousness is dependant on the relationship with the teacher rather than something passing from one to the other.
I am not defending this, just stating my understanding of their understanding. So there is no need to convince me of your understanding of my understanding.. :smile:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Pero » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:59 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:43 pm
Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:32 pm
...
The same thing goes with Aro -- let us suppose it is just a copy of Nyingma termas -- let us suppose they have the seven line prayer revealed as part of the supposed treasures of an Aro Lingma of questionable historicity. Let us also suppose that these Aroistas chant this Aro seven line prayer, identical in every respect with the original apart from lineage, with total faith and devotion in Guru Rinpoche, and so on. Are you or any one else seriously claiming they will receive no blessings at all from this faithful copy? On the face of it, it is a claim that not only borders on the absurd, it falls headlong into absurdity.It is also a claim rooted in a pernicious fundamentalism we really should eradicate from Buddhism.
However, wouldn't with this logic empowerments and lungs be rendered meaningless? I just copy an empowerment from a text I found somewhere and start bestowing it, people believe it as genuine, voila, blessings. :shrug:
If I have not understood the Aro teaching here then I beg their pardon, but I think they are saying that empowerments and lungs have no objective reality anyway no matter what the source. That their efficaciousness is dependant on the relationship with the teacher rather than something passing from one to the other.
I am not defending this, just stating my understanding of their understanding. So there is no need to convince me of your understanding of my understanding.. :smile:
Is there any "objective reality"? Seem pretty meaningless to say. Otherwise, I don't have a strong opinion regarding Aro (other than that I wouldn't be able to recommend them to anyone due to the controversy), so I wasn't planning on doing any convincing haha. I was just curious about this particular point.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:00 pm

Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:32 pm
...
The same thing goes with Aro -- let us suppose it is just a copy of Nyingma termas -- let us suppose they have the seven line prayer revealed as part of the supposed treasures of an Aro Lingma of questionable historicity. Let us also suppose that these Aroistas chant this Aro seven line prayer, identical in every respect with the original apart from lineage, with total faith and devotion in Guru Rinpoche, and so on. Are you or any one else seriously claiming they will receive no blessings at all from this faithful copy? On the face of it, it is a claim that not only borders on the absurd, it falls headlong into absurdity.It is also a claim rooted in a pernicious fundamentalism we really should eradicate from Buddhism.
However, wouldn't with this logic empowerments and lungs be rendered meaningless?
Let's take the example of Bonpo traditions: knock off forgeries or authentic Dharma with a valid lineage. What is your opinion?
I just copy an empowerment from a text I found somewhere and start bestowing it, people believe it as genuine, voila, blessings. :shrug:
This is exactly, precisely, the very thing Sakya Paṇḍita accused Nyingmapas of doing, that is, finding old books in the ground for which the they did not have the transmission, and just bestowing the empowerments anyway.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Pero » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:00 pm
Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:32 pm
...
The same thing goes with Aro -- let us suppose it is just a copy of Nyingma termas -- let us suppose they have the seven line prayer revealed as part of the supposed treasures of an Aro Lingma of questionable historicity. Let us also suppose that these Aroistas chant this Aro seven line prayer, identical in every respect with the original apart from lineage, with total faith and devotion in Guru Rinpoche, and so on. Are you or any one else seriously claiming they will receive no blessings at all from this faithful copy? On the face of it, it is a claim that not only borders on the absurd, it falls headlong into absurdity.It is also a claim rooted in a pernicious fundamentalism we really should eradicate from Buddhism.
However, wouldn't with this logic empowerments and lungs be rendered meaningless?
Let's take the example of Bonpo traditions: knock off forgeries or authentic Dharma with a valid lineage. What is your opinion?
I doubt it was as simple as that. In this case even if copies, most likely to get them someone had to actually receive the original and then made a copy.
I just copy an empowerment from a text I found somewhere and start bestowing it, people believe it as genuine, voila, blessings. :shrug:
This is exactly, precisely, the very thing Sakya Paṇḍita accused Nyingmapas of doing, that is, finding old books in the ground for which the they did not have the transmission, and just bestowing the empowerments anyway.
LOL! When you put it like that it sounds kind of bad haha. But I think this also is not as simple as that.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:14 pm

Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 pm
Let's take the example of Bonpo traditions: knock off forgeries or authentic Dharma with a valid lineage. What is your opinion?
I doubt it was as simple as that. In this case even if copies, most likely to get them someone had to actually receive the original and then made a copy.
The usual excuse Buddhists give for Bonpo texts is that some kind Buddhist wrote a text using Bonpo lingo, in order to establish some kind of connection for Bonpos with Buddhism. But what of Bon texts that have no contact with Buddhists? Do they lack blessings?
LOL! When you put it like that it sounds kind of bad haha. But I think this also is not as simple as that.

Yes, well, exactly, the Aro thing is not as simple as that either. In the early days, it pretty much was that simple.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by aflatun » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:04 pm


Actually, it should be required reading for all Buddhists in every school.
:good:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:18 pm

Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:00 pm
I just copy an empowerment from a text I found somewhere and start bestowing it, people believe it as genuine, voila, blessings. :shrug:
This is exactly, precisely, the very thing Sakya Paṇḍita accused Nyingmapas of doing, that is, finding old books in the ground for which the they did not have the transmission, and just bestowing the empowerments anyway.
LOL! When you put it like that it sounds kind of bad haha. But I think this also is not as simple as that.
What's the difference? Well, in terma traditions, you have examples of practitioners who applied the teachings and had attainment. Same with the example of Bon above.

I don't know what the fruits of practice for the Aro people are because I don't know them, and I don't know if anyone practicing in the way they do has shown attainment upon death.

:shrug:

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:30 pm
It is not like there is a treasure ratification committee. Treasures are "ratified" because a highly respected person reviews the text by various means and decides it is good. But it is all based on the chain of authority that ends with one's own personal decision to accept or reject this or that teaching as "true or false."

This is the position the entire treasure tradition finds itself: the first well known terton, Nyangral Nyima Ozer, was not "authenticated" by anyone, and was roundly criticized by those outside his circle of disciples, and others with whom he associated who were also involved in treasure revelations.

For example, in his composition of the Indian biography of Padmasambhava, Jetsun Taranatha laughs at people who accept treasure biographies like the Life of the Lotus Born (bzang gling ma), and so on.

Nyang's successor, Guru Chowang, too was roundly criticized in 13th century Tibet for just making things up. Guru Chowang was not recognized by anyone as the reincarnation of Nyang Ral, he just went around and started telling people that he was Nyang Ral's incarnation. At that time, the treasure tradition was just getting a head of steam. Guru Chowang, BTW, is the original terton of the Seven Line Prayer that you chant everyday.

Much later on, Dili Terton, aka Dudjom Lingpa, without any teacher at all started writing down termas. But no one told him to go ahead and reveal treasures, and no one formally recognized him as the incarnation of Kathog Duddul Dorje.

Nyala Chanchub Dorje, ChNN's guru, just started revealing treasures, no one told him to. No one ratified his treasures, and they were largely unknown to anyone outside his direct circle of disciples in his region of Kham. He was well known as a physician, not a terton.
Thank you for that information. I know there are no ratification committees, there were none at the beginning of the terma tradition and there are none now.

You see, I do not doubt that Chogyam had a vision and in that vision Aro Lingma revealed herself to him and gave him a teaching. I don't even doubt that there may have been an Aro Lingma that lived and practiced in relative obscurity somewhere in a remote part of Tibet. It is quite plausible.

BUT if I had a vision like this I would ask myself: who exactly is this Aro Lingma character? Am I sure they are realised/enlightened? Am I sure that what they gave me is Buddhavacana? Personally if I had a visionary experience, I would take it to my teacher, failing that I would take it to a knowledgeable teacher that I trusted to assess it. Why? Because I would not be the first person that has fallen prey to a Mara or demon in disguise. I would not be the first person to believe that the machinations of their ignorant samsaric minds are products of enlightenment. You know how many people like this we have to deal with as moderators every day?
The reason I point all this out is that stating something is questionable value because it was not "ratified" by anyone in fact even applies to Mahāyāna sūtras in general, and the tantras as well.
Well, no actually. Why? Because the information and practices of the teachings in Sutra and Tantra have been applied by generations of practitioners and showed to be valid.
You can try and claim that you accept these as valid because it was ratified by this or that person, but even here, you are accepting this person's authority purely on the basis of your own opinions about what to accept and what to reject.
No. It is not like that at all. There are people that have proven themselves trustworthy, that have shown they have knowledge and insight. Belonging to a lineage may not be a 100% guarantee, but one can compare the individual (or the teaching) to the guidelines of the lineage.

Analysing a teaching based on it's adherence to the Four Dharma Seals is also a pretty valid standard if one happens to be a Buddhist. Of course none of these is 100% objective, but nothing is.

Surely though you, as a Loppon, know that there is a legitimate theoretical and practical standard by which we can judge teachings? Otherwise you completely and utterly wasted your time studying all those years, if it all comes down to personal preference/opinion. Your view leads to outcome that the opinion of an ignorant moron and a learned scholar are equal, since ultimately they are both subjective. Is that what you believe?
There is no objective authority in these matters, no objective standard by which we can confirm at the outset "this one is true, this one is false" apart from examining the teachings themselves to see if their meaning is in accord with the Dharma. Sometimes we decide that this or that does not conform to the meaning, sometimes we do. But it is all based on our personal opinions. The idea that it is based on any thing else is ridiculous.
Are you saying there is no such thing as Dharma?
His gurus include HH Dalai Lama, HH Sakya Trizin, HH Dudjom Rinpoche, Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje RInpoche, CR Lama, etc., but his root guru is the late Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche, who composed the Tummo section of the Khandro Thugthig.
At last an answer! Thank you. That is a pretty serious and solid set of teachers he has there. I wonder if he has shown his terma to any of them and what their opinion was?
Can you provide anything more than anecdotal evidence that any treasure is "valid?"
Obviously not.
Apart from personally engaging in their practice themselves, the only pramāṇa, authority or valid cognition, upon which one may rely upon for authenticating treasures is śabdapramāṇa, the authority that depends on the testimony of a reliable witness. But in that case, how does one establish the witness as an authority?
I answered to that point above.

I have to say that I like Gendun Chophel. And I think that his conflict with the religious establishment was quite admirable and may have even saved them from destruction, if they had taken what he said seriously instead of as a threat. But reducing Madhyamaka to subjectivism is not exactly valid, since Madhyamaka does not recognise the existence of a subject. I mean, on the basis of the argument he makes, one can just turn around and say to him: "Well, yeah, that's just your opinion buddy" and be 100% correct. His logic invalidates his own conclusion.
So your demand that the Aro people prove their treasures are valid is really quite foolish, and your denunciation of their teachings is based solely on your own jaundiced eye.
Hold onto your horses there cowboy, I did not denounce anybody or anything. I said that based on existing evidence there is no support for the validity of the teachings and the lineage. That is not a denunciation, that is a statement of fact. But one could easily say, according to the Gendun Chophel quotes you provided, that your support for the authenticity of Aro gTer is also based on your own jaundiced eye. In which case you just hoisted yourself on your own petard.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Pero » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:14 pm
Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 pm
Let's take the example of Bonpo traditions: knock off forgeries or authentic Dharma with a valid lineage. What is your opinion?
I doubt it was as simple as that. In this case even if copies, most likely to get them someone had to actually receive the original and then made a copy.
The usual excuse Buddhists give for Bonpo texts is that some kind Buddhist wrote a text using Bonpo lingo, in order to establish some kind of connection for Bonpos with Buddhism. But what of Bon texts that have no contact with Buddhists? Do they lack blessings?
LOL! When you put it like that it sounds kind of bad haha. But I think this also is not as simple as that.

Yes, well, exactly, the Aro thing is not as simple as that either. In the early days, it pretty much was that simple.
I see your point now.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:27 pm

DGA wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:18 pm
Pero wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:00 pm


This is exactly, precisely, the very thing Sakya Paṇḍita accused Nyingmapas of doing, that is, finding old books in the ground for which the they did not have the transmission, and just bestowing the empowerments anyway.
LOL! When you put it like that it sounds kind of bad haha. But I think this also is not as simple as that.
What's the difference? Well, in terma traditions, you have examples of practitioners who applied the teachings and had attainment. Same with the example of Bon above.

I don't know what the fruits of practice for the Aro people are because I don't know them, and I don't know if anyone practicing in the way they do has shown attainment upon death.

:shrug:
:twothumbsup:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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