The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik »

methar wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:42 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:56 pm
The discussion is about whether Aro gTer is an authentic Dharma group or not. Whether their lineage is authentic or not. Whether their terma is authentic or not. So far there has been no convincing evidence at all regarding their authenticity. None. Not a single piece.
:twothumbsup:

This website has for years exposed fake Lamas and Tulkus to my great joy.

Last years members of this website exposed Rodney Devinish as a fake Tulku.

To now even think about discussing the authenticity of teachings of a SELF RECOGNIZED Aro Tulku is laughable.

Grigoris is spot on in this matter.

Unless we have suddenly accepted SELF RECOGNIZED TULKUS AND THEIR SELF RECOGNIZED TERMAS as authentic.

Do we now accept self recognized DOCTORS or DENTISTS because their patients say nice things about them.

No, we look for the "OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED DIPLOMAS" on their wall.

We all look for "LICENCED" mechanics not "UNLICENCED SELF RECOGNIZED" mechanics.

What slippery slope are we now sliding down on and were does it end.

I don't give a F... how nice and sweet the followers are.

I give a F... if the teacher is the real official deal or just another "used car sales man in Lama's Robes".

Give me a "used car sales man with 6 months of intense dharma training" and I'll give you the next great SELF RECOGNIZED TULKU.

His followers will all say he is the greatest, kindest and insightful Master they have ever met.

Maybe just maybe he's just another "used car sales man in Lama's Robes".

But, maybe just maybe you don't care if he is as long as he makes you feel good.

Thanks Grigoris for cutting through all the BULL...T.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:23 pm I am putting forward commonly accepted (in a Vajrayana context) criteria for authenticity and asking if they satisfy these criteria and NOBODY has made a relevant response.

Given the lack of evidence, I see no reason why any rational person would conclude that they are authentic.


No rational person could possible ever ever disagree with you.........or they would be irrational by definition, fools to be dismissed. Come on, you can do better than this.

Let me fix this for you:
''Given the lack of evidence, I see no reason why any rational person would conclude that they are not authentic.''

Others have just asserted lack of authenticity in complete absence of any evidence one way or the other, yet you haven't called them irrational.

In the absence of evidence of any wrongdoing, you want people to prove the man in the dock should not be hanged, using agreed rules of evidence to assess the absent evidence. Yup, that's what you are asking. ;)
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:23 pm
Now if I were trying to attack Aro gTer, to demean them, to slander them personally, to cast aspersions on the character of their teachers, etc... I could understand why somebody would come tho their defence. But I am not doing that. I am putting forward commonly accepted (in a Vajrayana context) criteria for authenticity and asking if they satisfy these criteria and NOBODY has made a relevant response.
Greg, there are no commonly accepted criteria. As I pointed out to you, there are Sakyas and Gelugpas who still reject the treasure tradition in toto. Many excellent scholars in from the 11th to the 14th century and later, wrote rebuttals to various traditions in a form of literature called sngags log sun 'byung, i.e. refuting false mantra. Traditions, texts and persons accused of being spurious and fradulent include Chod/Shijey, the earliest Dzogchen texts (what even need to mention later texts?), the Guhyagarbha Tantra, Guru Chowang by name, and so on.

The basic rebuttal to these polemical attacks comes in the form of this citation by the Buddha from the Sūtra of Encouraging Altruistic Intentrya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra):

Those bhiḳsus claim, "Generosity and so on, is completely worldly behavior and is not a Dharma taught in the sūtras nor in vinaya. This is not Dharma, so do not give it respect!" Those foolish men do not know that anything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha. Because they have been blessed by Māra, they reject the Dharma of those Dharma-upholding bhikṣus and engage in the karma of rejecting the Dharma. Because they engage in the karma of rejecting the Dharma, they fall into error.

Given the lack of evidence, I see no reason why any rational person would conclude that they are authentic.
In reality, the only evidence one needs to see is whether or not their Dharma, such as it is, is well-spoken.
Now it is granted that at the beginning of the terma "tradition" (it was not a tradition when it kicked off) there were no criteria to judge authenticity, but that was two centuries ago. I think that currently we can agree that there are methods to prove authenticity, albeit subjective.
Greg, the Treasure tradition is more than a thousand years old. So, I think you must have made a hasty mistake. The earliest Buddhist terton in the Padmasambhava sense of the term was Sangye Lama, who lived in the early 11th century. Bonpo termas also date to this period, with Shenchen Luga's revelations.

In all of that time, there really is no method for proving a treasure is valid or invalid, apart from some respected person expressing their approval of the treasure itself. Though, there have been people trying to act as tertons, who, much to their surprise, revealed boxes of turds because someone caught them out in their act and substituted their treasure for shit.

And even today, in Tibet, there are successful tertons who are accused of being frauds by some, and heralded as buddhas by others. It just isn't a certain enterprise with exacting standards. Even more problematical are pure visions -- for example, Shugden texts and so on are claimed to be a pure vision teaching.

As to your final point, apparently many rational people do conclude the Aro crew are authentic enough, and the proof of this is that they have many followers. Books by Aro people like Dangerous Friend remain popular and in print at Shambhala Pubs, and so on.

All of this attachment to credentials and validation is a māra of gigantic proportions.

I personally could care less if Aro teachings are authentic or not. I don't see you hassling Ivo, or the Flaming Jewel people, or Pema Khandro, and so on, thus your motives in demanding Aro people to prove their authenticity are rather...misguided in my opinion.

When you examine the history of such polemics, their targets tend to ignore the fuss and just continue to do what they do, heedless of their critics. I suspect the Aro folk will do just that. At this point, you are banging your head against a wall of indifference to you or anyone else's opinion about them.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Natan »

Simon E. wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:21 pm There is no yardstick for 'authenticity' at all, for any group, none. Authenticity in this context is a willothewisp, a mirage, a fond illusion.

The only yardstick is the fruits of practice, and the Aro show that in spades unlike a number of groups one could point to who have an undisputed pedigree.... and are hotbeds of adharma.
Very important point, the result. It’s about being calm, getting along well with others, not being so opinionated and judgmental, being warm, kind, etc.

Anyone who does that, religion or not is a Buddha, more or less. Any religion that does that, is dharma, more or Less.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:16 pm
Simon E. wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:21 pm There is no yardstick for 'authenticity' at all, for any group, none. Authenticity in this context is a willothewisp, a mirage, a fond illusion.

The only yardstick is the fruits of practice, and the Aro show that in spades unlike a number of groups one could point to who have an undisputed pedigree.... and are hotbeds of adharma.
Very important point, the result. It’s about being calm, getting along well with others, not being so opinionated and judgmental, being warm, kind, etc.

Anyone who does that, religion or not is a Buddha, more or less. Any religion that does that, is dharma, more or Less.
I write as one who is attempting to be less opinionated and judgemental..and whose success in that varies from day to day. A work in progress in other words. And it's hard work, my learned behaviours are well established. I do not have the luxury of judging anyone else...
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PuerAzaelis »

There appear to be plenty of “authentic” teachers who have been a-holes.

There appear to be some “inauthentic” teachers who appear to be conveying information which is legit.

After a dozen pages that’s more or less where we’re always going to end up.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:37 pmI think many are surprised to see Malcolm take position #2 given the strong views he has espoused elsewhere as to the invalidity of certain practices, not least in one long discussion he had with you on this topic. Maybe you can see an error of reasoning in his argument here; I can’t.
You mean like when he said:

"Honestly, it is a little incredible to me that Tibetan Buddhists who castigate Shugdenpas for holding that a rgyalpo spirit is a buddha, hold up the idea that Durga/Kali, etc., is an acceptable refuge. Have you all lost your minds? Further, can anyone tell me a single sūtra or tantra that upholds the idea that Durga, Kali, etc., are valid refuges? No? I didn't think so."

Or this one:

"Why would anyone want to seek out a teaching of uncertain provenance? This is the whole point. One establishes that a teaching is valid before one engages in it."

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=23725&hilit=kali+nagmo#p356093

And all this (and more) about the terma of a recognised teacher (a Loppon none-the-less) from a recognised lineage? :?
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:48 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:37 pmI think many are surprised to see Malcolm take position #2 given the strong views he has espoused elsewhere as to the invalidity of certain practices, not least in one long discussion he had with you on this topic. Maybe you can see an error of reasoning in his argument here; I can’t.
You mean like when he said: "Honestly, it is a little incredible to me that Tibetan Buddhists who castigate Shugdenpas for holding that a rgyalpo spirit is a buddha, hold up the idea that Durga/Kali, etc., is an acceptable refuge. Have you all lost your minds? Further, can anyone tell me a single sūtra or tantra that upholds the idea that Durga, Kali, etc., are valid refuges? No? I didn't think so."

Or this one: "Why would anyone want to seek out a teaching of uncertain provenance? This is the whole point. One establishes that a teaching is valid before one engages in it."

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=23725&hilit=kali+nagmo#p356093

And all this (and more) about the terma of a recognised teacher (a Loppon none-the-less) from a recognised lineage? :?
Oh, so now LOTR is a terton? I thought this was just a pure vision. Who validated this terma?

BTW, our friend, Doc Togden, is from a recognized lineage too —— he is actually a Dudjom Tersar guy. I know a Bhutanese Khenpo, the teacher of some people here, for example, who attended Chogyam's Dudjom Tersar Troma Nagmo empowerment at Pema Osel Ling. Lama Tharchin certainly expressed no objection to Chogyam giving that empowerment there (though to be fair, they were just renting the place).
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:57 pmOh, so now LOTR is a terton? I thought this was just a pure vision. Who validated this terma?
Hypocrisy, not inconsistency.

Who, for example, recognised ChNN and his pure visions/terma?
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:57 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:48 pm
And all this (and more) about the terma of a recognised teacher (a Loppon none-the-less) from a recognised lineage? :?
Oh, so now LOTR is a terton? I thought this was just a pure vision. Who validated this terma?
Oops. lol :)
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:00 pm Who, for example, recognised ChNN and his pure visions/terma?
He was recognized by his uncle, first, then later by the 16th Karmapa.

But in terms of his terma, as far as I know it hasn't been validated but some terma validating authority. But I know some Tibetan Lamas who are very enthusiastic about Mandarava.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:00 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:57 pmOh, so now LOTR is a terton? I thought this was just a pure vision. Who validated this terma?
Hypocrisy, not inconsistency.
The point, Greg, is that you demand proof of validation for Aro ter, but not for your own teacher's termas. That seems contradictory to me.

I still find the idea of Kalima as a Buddhist yidam pretty "novel". But you clearly don't care a) whether this terma has been credentialed by a credentialing authority, and b) have no interest in any's opinion about it anyway. It makes you happy, so please do as you wish.

I think the Aro people are in much the same position as you.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:01 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:00 pm Who, for example, recognised ChNN and his pure visions/terma?
He was recognized by his uncle, first, then later by the 16th Karmapa.

But in terms of his terma, as far as I know it hasn't been validated but some terma validating authority. But I know some Tibetan Lamas who are very enthusiastic about Mandarava.
People treat Adzom Drugpa's terma sadhanas etc. as valid, so as ChNN is Adzom Drugpa isn't it pretty automatic?
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:01 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:00 pm Who, for example, recognised ChNN and his pure visions/terma?
He was recognized by his uncle, first, then later by the 16th Karmapa.

But in terms of his terma, as far as I know it hasn't been validated but some terma validating authority. But I know some Tibetan Lamas who are very enthusiastic about Mandarava.
So now there is authority?
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Mantrik wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:01 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:00 pm Who, for example, recognised ChNN and his pure visions/terma?
He was recognized by his uncle, first, then later by the 16th Karmapa.

But in terms of his terma, as far as I know it hasn't been validated but some terma validating authority. But I know some Tibetan Lamas who are very enthusiastic about Mandarava.
People treat Adzom Drugpa's terma sadhanas etc. as valid, so as ChNN is Adzom Drugpa isn't it pretty automatic?

ChNN kept his termas pretty secret for a very long time. I know for a fact that there are still Nyingma Lamas who think they are fake.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:01 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:00 pm Who, for example, recognised ChNN and his pure visions/terma?
He was recognized by his uncle, first, then later by the 16th Karmapa.

But in terms of his terma, as far as I know it hasn't been validated but some terma validating authority. But I know some Tibetan Lamas who are very enthusiastic about Mandarava.
So now there is authority?
No, they just like his termas, finding them "well-spoken." In terms of his being recognized as a tulku, it has never really been that important to me, though it is important to others, that is why I mention it on occasion.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:04 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:00 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:57 pmOh, so now LOTR is a terton? I thought this was just a pure vision. Who validated this terma?
Hypocrisy, not inconsistency.
The point, Greg, is that you demand proof of validation for Aro ter, but not for your own teacher's termas. That seems contradictory to me.

I still find the idea of Kalima as a Buddhist yidam pretty "novel". But you clearly don't care a) whether this terma has been credentialed by a credentialing authority, and b) have no interest in any's opinion about it anyway. It makes you happy, so please do as you wish.

I think the Aro people are in much the same position as you.
No. But the only reason I brought up these two statements anyway, is to highlight your hypocrisy. Your comments about your own teacher were an added bonus for my point.

I'm done with this thread.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:09 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:01 pm

He was recognized by his uncle, first, then later by the 16th Karmapa.

But in terms of his terma, as far as I know it hasn't been validated but some terma validating authority. But I know some Tibetan Lamas who are very enthusiastic about Mandarava.
People treat Adzom Drugpa's terma sadhanas etc. as valid, so as ChNN is Adzom Drugpa isn't it pretty automatic?
ChNN kept his termas pretty secret for a very long time. I know for a fact that there are still Nyingma Lamas who think they are fake.
Although 'tis the sport to have the Greg hoist by his own petar, to be fair to ChNN and LOTR I don't think either of them have claimed to have a 'terma'. Is that correct?
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Pero »

Mantrik wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:17 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:09 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:05 pm

People treat Adzom Drugpa's terma sadhanas etc. as valid, so as ChNN is Adzom Drugpa isn't it pretty automatic?
ChNN kept his termas pretty secret for a very long time. I know for a fact that there are still Nyingma Lamas who think they are fake.
Although 'tis the sport to have the Greg hoist by his own petar, to be fair to ChNN and LOTR I don't think either of them have claimed to have a 'terma'. Is that correct?
I think it's not. :smile:
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik »

Pero wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:28 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:17 pm
Although 'tis the sport to have the Greg hoist by his own petar, to be fair to ChNN and LOTR I don't think either of them have claimed to have a 'terma'. Is that correct?
I think it's not. :smile:
Oh. I wasn't aware of that. It would be great if ChNN had spoken of his 'termas' :)

Can you say more, please? (Here ir PM is fine.) Thanks.
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