The Aro Authenticity Debate.

DGA
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:40 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:50 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:53 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:06 am
OK, well, that's two. So if we're going for body/speech/mind/qualities/activities we still have space for three more emanations. Any volunteers?
EJ Gold of Grass Valley, CA. Born well before Gurdjieff died but we don't need to let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

http://deletedwiki.com/index.php?title=E._J._Gold

There's actually a name for the phenomenon of an emanation being born before the death of the emanator, "ma 'das sprul sku", and apparently Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje, was one such. Just sayin'.
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:21 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:14 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:00 pm
Me too, and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.
Except for maybe being a complete and utter waste of one's precious human existence.

Well, it's at least conceivable that a liberating teaching could be expressed in the form of a deliberate parody, isn't it?

Sure, you can't rule it out with complete certainty. It's also possible that Wesley Willis was a hidden yogi. Maybe...?

One thing I can say with certainty is that Dudjom Rinpoche was extraordinary. I don't know how many others like him there may be.

I try to be open-minded about these things but mostly I take the claims of online Ego Destroyers with a pinch of salt.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:45 am

It occurs to me that if a white supremacist took an interest in Buddha Dharma, the Celtic Buddhism adventure would be highly appealing to him or her.
Last edited by DGA on Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:11 am

florin wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:39 pm
For those still in doubt whether Aro was real maybe this could help things along.
After all Aro might have roots in the history of romanian automotive industry.
And yes that was a real car...
aro-10-3-1-9018-default-large.jpeg
Thank you, Florin. The mystery has now been put to rest.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PeterC » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:16 am

Motova wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:28 pm
Thank you to all the contributors here. I feel it has helped reduce my sectarianism and increased my patience.

From what I've learnt in my limited experience is that it is impossible to convert someone to Buddhism or a Buddhist to Dharma.

As long as others aren't hurting themselves or others directly then it's not our business.
In one sense, yes, we don’t proselytize. But in another sense, absolutely no...otherwise all that wishing that all life be free from suffering and the causes of suffering is just empty words. Of course we are concerned about it, the issue is by what means we attempt to help them

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Drenpa » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:19 am

"A thought has occurred to me numerous times, that the whole Aro thing is a deliberate parody..."

People not paying attention used to posit the same thing about Trump - Maybe he was SO smart, and actually was a genius who understood 'everyman'. So much so he could adopt a WWF'esque persona in order to better work with everyman and serve we the people. Someone couldn't really BE such a caricature for reals, right??

Shiiiiiit. When someone shows you who they are, believe them. At least in a vacuum.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:11 am
florin wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:39 pm
For those still in doubt whether Aro was real maybe this could help things along.
After all Aro might have roots in the history of romanian automotive industry.
And yes that was a real car...
aro-10-3-1-9018-default-large.jpeg
Thank you, Florin. The mystery has now been put to rest.

Possibly of interest: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aro
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:53 am

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:39 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:30 pm
Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:22 pm


Pretty much all neo-pagan movements are like that, fantasies based on modern romanticized views of long dead traditions.
Yes, though I think the "Crowning of the Bard" in Cymru is a wonderful thing.
IN the UK we call them 'reconstructed' religions, which is maybe kinder than 'invented' but it does get ridiculous when we end up with Druid Shamans et al.
Just as Buddhists may get annoyed by the Celtic Buddhist nonsense, or find it funny, indigenous shamans from places like Mongolia are not at all amused by the hijacking of their practices by some twit from Glastonbury after a fast buck, who probably also peddles ayahuasca drug tourism.
I'm not sure if it's a regional language difference or not, but the use I generally hear is that "reconstructionists" are trying, as accurately as possible, to actual reconstruct historical practices, and often spend a lot of time and energy studying history and archeology and are often academics. These people would be much less likely to be druid-shaman-ayahuasca tourists (maybe "core shamanism," but that's not very respected by most academics I think).

As opposed to neo-pagans, who's practices involve a lot more inspiration, culture mixing, fake histories (e.g. wicca). Not to lump everyone together, but the druid-shaman-witch-ayahuasca is more likely to be in this group.

I don't really know much about druids but, for example I think the Ar n'driocht Fein is reconstructionist, while the Order of Bards Ovates & Druids is not.
Of course we have 'King Arthur', reincarnated, who parades around with his sword strapped to his bicycle and lay claim to Stonehenge etc. so the entertainment value probably outweight the fristrations. :)
That's awesome!

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:02 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:00 am

To extend that line of thought sideways ... the whole Ritual Magic (Crowley and others) "tradition" is far more of a recent invention than of a reconstruction or continuation of a secret, ancient, but continuous tradition. The border between invented and reconstructed is very fuzzy
Yes, there was a lot of invented history based on a rediscovery of (some of the PGM) and old fashioned Egyptology.
I think that at the time a lot of that stuff was best understandings of history, viewed through a Victorian frame and with a lot of fake history thrown in (fake history is a part of the western tradition back to Alexandrian Egypt at least though so, ...maybe that counts as traditional?)

There is a trend now, amongst some, to look at the real history of the grimoires, the PGM and cunning-folk practices (stuff that has a real history) and also how these same are currently used in living cultures that have maintained them (e.g. Brazil) and to reconstruct them in a more accurate and effective (subject to debate) practice.

[/quote]
... and what about Castaneda and the "Teachings" of Don Juan?
[/quote]
Don't really know much about Castenda, ...but I assume it's all bu!!$#!t.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Sennin » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:29 am

climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:02 am


There is a trend now, amongst some, to look at the real history of the grimoires, the PGM and cunning-folk practices (stuff that has a real history) and also how these same are currently used in living cultures that have maintained them (e.g. Brazil) and to reconstruct them in a more accurate and effective (subject to debate) practice.
There also checking out Arabic source material as well.
For example the Picatrix, the works of al- Hakim and al- Buni.

Edit: In Brazil there's also a huge ATR influence as well as native spirituality mixed in with PGM and folk grimoie. Like Umbanda.
Go no paradigm! ;)

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:44 am

I have a feeling that reconstruction is actually more common in history than we might first assume. It's just that the successful reconstructions manage to cast themselves as heirs of whatever tradition they claim to be successors of.

Apparently the Vedic horse sacrifice died out for centuries if not millennia by Ashoka's time. The Shunga dynasty revived it to claim legitimacy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha

Even the Vedas themselves were reinterpreted heavily, long after the Buddha's death -- comparative linguistics tells us that the commentators were wrong in many cases. Yet they gave rise to a tradition that stretches to the present.

I'm sure similar things happened in other points of time, maybe in Buddhism itself too.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:14 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:44 am
I have a feeling that reconstruction is actually more common in history than we might first assume. It's just that the successful reconstructions manage to cast themselves as heirs of whatever tradition they claim to be successors of.

Apparently the Vedic horse sacrifice died out for centuries if not millennia by Ashoka's time. The Shunga dynasty revived it to claim legitimacy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha

Even the Vedas themselves were reinterpreted heavily, long after the Buddha's death -- comparative linguistics tells us that the commentators were wrong in many cases. Yet they gave rise to a tradition that stretches to the present.

I'm sure similar things happened in other points of time, maybe in Buddhism itself too.
Really good point!

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:46 am

KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:29 am
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:02 am


There is a trend now, amongst some, to look at the real history of the grimoires, the PGM and cunning-folk practices (stuff that has a real history) and also how these same are currently used in living cultures that have maintained them (e.g. Brazil) and to reconstruct them in a more accurate and effective (subject to debate) practice.
There also checking out Arabic source material as well.
For example the Picatrix, the works of al- Hakim and al- Buni.

Edit: In Brazil there's also a huge ATR influence as well as native spirituality mixed in with PGM and folk grimoie. Like Umbanda.
We're clearly reading from the same script! ;)

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:15 am

climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:46 am
KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:29 am
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:02 am


There is a trend now, amongst some, to look at the real history of the grimoires, the PGM and cunning-folk practices (stuff that has a real history) and also how these same are currently used in living cultures that have maintained them (e.g. Brazil) and to reconstruct them in a more accurate and effective (subject to debate) practice.
There also checking out Arabic source material as well.
For example the Picatrix, the works of al- Hakim and al- Buni.

Edit: In Brazil there's also a huge ATR influence as well as native spirituality mixed in with PGM and folk grimoie. Like Umbanda.
We're clearly reading from the same script! ;)
I suspect Lady Death - viewtopic.php?f=40&t=27257 - can be fitted into this view of syncretic religion, too.

:coffee:
Kim

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:23 am

Well, Voodoo seems to have some "real" roots too. In my work with Central African refugees, they tell me all sorts of blood-curdling stories of their indigenous practices, that we clearly see in Voodoo too. imagine the original slaves mixed their practices with indigenous religious practices of America plus some of the folk aspects of Southern European Catholicism.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:28 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:26 am
Possibly of interest: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aro
This is CRR's (a former teacher of Doc) version of the name Aro gTer:
CRR: "Some Westerners... some ball crystal... fall down in ... Swayambhu Stupa, Nepal.
Then this some another Westerner get up then show one Tibetan high lamas. Then says "Aro!!
oh shel!!" he say. Then now he says Aro shel s now become ter - Aro ter he says. Now he’s Aro
Ter. Padmasambhava’s list inside Aro Ter s nobody’s there. About to now coming possible
1.000 that list inside not being (?) Aro Ter. Anyway ... teaching here... then like this ... false
... teachings also benefit or not I don’t know, I doubt."

GK: "Irgendein Westler hat wohl einen Kristall... eine Kristallkugel bei der Swayambhu
Stupa in Nepal verloren, und in anderer Westler hat die gefunden, und hat das dann einem
hohen tibetischen Lama gezeigt, und der hat dann vielleicht sowas gesagt wie "Aro oh shel"
was so viel heißt wie "oh eine Kristall oh, ein Kristall!". Und derjenige hat verstanden "Aro
Ter" und erzählt jetzt, dass das ein Aro Ter wäre. Rinpoche sagt, diesen Namen „Aro Ter“ hat
er in den Voraussagen von Padmasambhava, in der Liste, die Padmasambhava gegeben hat,
nirgends gefunden. Es gibt eine Liste, da sind noch Tausende von Tertöns, die kommen
sollen, und Termas, die kommen sollen. Aber dieser Name "Aro Ter" kommt darunter nicht
vor. Und, ob, wenn dann solche falschen Belehrungen oder Termas gelehrt werden, dann
zweifelt Rinpoche, ob das auch einen wirklichen Nutzen bringt."

GK translation: „Some Westerner has maybe lost a crystal ball near the Swayambhu Stupa,
and then another Westerner has found it and has shown it to a high Tibetan lama who then
maybe has said something like „Aro oh shel“ which means something like „Oh, a crystal, oh,
a crystal“. And he [the Westerner] has understood „Aro Ter“, and now he says that it is an
Aro Ter. Rinpoche says that he has not found this name „Aro Ter“ in Padmasambhava’s
prophecies, he hasn’t found it anywhere in the list that Padmasambhava has given. There is a
list of thousands of tertons to be coming, and of termas to be coming. But this name „Aro
Ter“ is not in it. And if, when such false teachings or termas are being taught, if this will be of
any real benefit - Rinpoche has his doubts.“

CRR: "If like this... crystal ball there taking necessary ... I ... if I have money ... Europe I
gave then more than hundred thousand crystal balls I buy possible, I say this everything is Ter
... I lying cheating possible ... I never do."

GK: "Wenn so ein Kristall-Ball ein Terma wäre, er sagt, dann könnte er in Europa Hunderte
von solchen Termas kaufen, aber er sagt er hat es nicht nötig, auf diese Art und Weise zu
lügen und zu betrügen."

GK translation: „If such a crystal ball would be a terma, he [Rinpoche] says, then he could
buy hundreds of termas like this in Europe, but he says he doesn’t need to lie and cheat in this
way.“

CRR: "You do that?"

GK: "I hope not!" (Gelächter/laughter)
The person that sent me the transcript also sent me the audio version.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:32 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:23 am
Well, Voodoo seems to have some "real" roots too. In my work with Central African refugees, they tell me all sorts of blood-curdling stories of their indigenous practices, that we clearly see in Voodoo too. imagine the original slaves mixed their practices with indigenous religious practices of America plus some of the folk aspects of Southern European Catholicism.
IMO, what makes it "real" is mainly the spirits agreeing to respond to the practitioners' offerings. But AFAIK, most of the purposes people have in mind for these rites are incompatible with Dharma. I used to be involved with online occult communities; I don't know why those people always experienced so many problems and turned to cursing and hexing so readily. Blood sacrifice is also common.

Compared to them, Aro is relatively benign IMO.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Tiago Simões » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:38 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:44 am
I'm sure similar things happened in other points of time, maybe in Buddhism itself too.
Didn't Malcolm say the Nyingma school was basically accused of being a reconstruction based on old books? I don't believe that of course...

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by heart » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:46 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:28 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:26 am
Possibly of interest: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aro
This is CRR's (a former teacher of Doc) version of the name Aro gTer:
CRR: "Some Westerners... some ball crystal... fall down in ... Swayambhu Stupa, Nepal.
Then this some another Westerner get up then show one Tibetan high lamas. Then says "Aro!!
oh shel!!" he say. Then now he says Aro shel s now become ter - Aro ter he says. Now he’s Aro
Ter. Padmasambhava’s list inside Aro Ter s nobody’s there. About to now coming possible
1.000 that list inside not being (?) Aro Ter. Anyway ... teaching here... then like this ... false
... teachings also benefit or not I don’t know, I doubt."

GK: "Irgendein Westler hat wohl einen Kristall... eine Kristallkugel bei der Swayambhu
Stupa in Nepal verloren, und in anderer Westler hat die gefunden, und hat das dann einem
hohen tibetischen Lama gezeigt, und der hat dann vielleicht sowas gesagt wie "Aro oh shel"
was so viel heißt wie "oh eine Kristall oh, ein Kristall!". Und derjenige hat verstanden "Aro
Ter" und erzählt jetzt, dass das ein Aro Ter wäre. Rinpoche sagt, diesen Namen „Aro Ter“ hat
er in den Voraussagen von Padmasambhava, in der Liste, die Padmasambhava gegeben hat,
nirgends gefunden. Es gibt eine Liste, da sind noch Tausende von Tertöns, die kommen
sollen, und Termas, die kommen sollen. Aber dieser Name "Aro Ter" kommt darunter nicht
vor. Und, ob, wenn dann solche falschen Belehrungen oder Termas gelehrt werden, dann
zweifelt Rinpoche, ob das auch einen wirklichen Nutzen bringt."

GK translation: „Some Westerner has maybe lost a crystal ball near the Swayambhu Stupa,
and then another Westerner has found it and has shown it to a high Tibetan lama who then
maybe has said something like „Aro oh shel“ which means something like „Oh, a crystal, oh,
a crystal“. And he [the Westerner] has understood „Aro Ter“, and now he says that it is an
Aro Ter. Rinpoche says that he has not found this name „Aro Ter“ in Padmasambhava’s
prophecies, he hasn’t found it anywhere in the list that Padmasambhava has given. There is a
list of thousands of tertons to be coming, and of termas to be coming. But this name „Aro
Ter“ is not in it. And if, when such false teachings or termas are being taught, if this will be of
any real benefit - Rinpoche has his doubts.“

CRR: "If like this... crystal ball there taking necessary ... I ... if I have money ... Europe I
gave then more than hundred thousand crystal balls I buy possible, I say this everything is Ter
... I lying cheating possible ... I never do."

GK: "Wenn so ein Kristall-Ball ein Terma wäre, er sagt, dann könnte er in Europa Hunderte
von solchen Termas kaufen, aber er sagt er hat es nicht nötig, auf diese Art und Weise zu
lügen und zu betrügen."

GK translation: „If such a crystal ball would be a terma, he [Rinpoche] says, then he could
buy hundreds of termas like this in Europe, but he says he doesn’t need to lie and cheat in this
way.“

CRR: "You do that?"

GK: "I hope not!" (Gelächter/laughter)
The person that sent me the transcript also sent me the audio version.
This story was well known among Chimed Rigdzin Rinpoche's students while he was alive. A friend of mine that was his student asked him if he really said this and got it confirmed. Interesting that there is a recording.

/magnus
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~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:11 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:32 am
IMO, what makes it "real" is mainly the spirits agreeing to respond to the practitioners' offerings. But AFAIK, most of the purposes people have in mind for these rites are incompatible with Dharma. I used to be involved with online occult communities; I don't know why those people always experienced so many problems and turned to cursing and hexing so readily. Blood sacrifice is also common.

Compared to them, Aro is relatively benign IMO.
When I say "real" I mean with an existing historical and social pedigree.

Are Aro benign or inane?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:21 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:23 am
Well, Voodoo seems to have some "real" roots too. In my work with Central African refugees, they tell me all sorts of blood-curdling stories of their indigenous practices, that we clearly see in Voodoo too. imagine the original slaves mixed their practices with indigenous religious practices of America plus some of the folk aspects of Southern European Catholicism.
Yes, thankfully we don't need to hammer iron nails into Buddhist statues to get their attention!
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